Brampton GO Station: Proposed Development (if you hate GO surface lots...)

[TOareaFan]

I'm sorry, but complex how? How would taking transit to the train station prove to be an overwhelming and complex endeavour?

Of course the actual act of taking transit is not terribly complex. What is fairly complex is understanding the psychology/rationale of a large group of disparite individuals who face that seemingly simple decision every day. As an example, I gave my personal choices earlier....pretty simple decision set....throw in just a simple real life addition of, say, "gotta drop the kid unit off at day care" that might eliminate even the possibility of using transit....now I "have to drive to the GO"....oops, there are no parking spots at the GO station....so I have to "drive".

All I was saying is that on a discussion board it is easy to isolate all of this down to a simple "what is "right" " kinda discussion....in the real world, however, it is a bit more complex than that.

Another example I have given in the past is when people make that blanket "feel good" statement that "everyone should just move closer to work"....well, what happens when you fall in love and get married to someone who just doesn't/can't work in the same part of town as you...well, then you have a decision to make about where to live and who commutes.....simple real life stuff that in a discussion board like this sometimes gets left aside.

Not trying to get personal but you seem like a passionate person when it comes to transit and urbanization issues. Yet, you do something every day that you have stated you hate......driving to and from work. Clearly, your personal decsion set (and I don't need/want to know what it is really) does not match the current transit system. It is always a bit more complex than it seems...for each of us.

I don't understand how complex it can possibly be. Get from point A to B in the most efficient manner possible. That's complex?

Unfortunately, the most efficient manner for most to get from A to B is car.

And, I should add: I very much doubt that any transit system in the GTA is worse than Durham Region Transit's operations in Pickering-Ajax.

Probably true.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Some posts here made it seem like it would be the end of GO Transit were they to get rid of all the free parking. An idea I found to be an irrational fear among some who are perhaps afraid to rock the boat that is the status quo.

No one has said any such thing. What you've said, however, is that since you walk and take the bus to get to the GO train, everyone else should, too. "I've suffered for transit, they deserve to suffer, too!" That's irrational.

What people have said is simply that if free parking is removed, some won't pay and will take their car elsewhere. We probably won't know how many until it happens.

 

[doady]

If pay parking at GO stations is introduced, then tolls for all 400-series highways should be implemented at the same time. Problem solved.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Suffered? I haven't suffered. It's good exercise.

I drive to work because I work in construction, roofing and metal work specifically, and can't really take a 36 foot ladder, all my tools, and whatever necessary materials on a bus.

As has been mentioned: if you offset parking lot usage fees by lowering train fares, people would have to feel mightily inconvenienced (somehow) to stop taking the train if there is no net rise inthe cost of doing so. I think it has more to do with the mindset of people that parking is a right if they are doing the world a "favour" by taking the train or just an inalienable right in general. Do you guys see an exodus of current users if a system under which parking usage fees implemented and train fares are lowered to offset said fee introduction?

I really shouldn't have opened a thread with "if you hate GO surface parking" in the title. Very little bothers me more. Inefficient land use at its worst.

 

[SunriseChampion]

If pay parking at GO stations is introduced, then tolls for all 400-series highways should be implemented at the same time. Problem solved.

Not quite problem solved.
Main thoroughfares clogged, more likely.

I guess the price of gas has to kick people in the ass a bit. If we had Europe's prices for gas here, people would be having fits like you've never seen. Might learn 'em.


I should add though: it's not always people's fault. The built environment in most of the GGH is such as to encourage car use. Collective guilt for past mistakes should take hold, if anything.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Suffered? I haven't suffered. It's good exercise.

I drive to work because I work in construction, roofing and metal work specifically, and can't really take a 36 foot ladder, all my tools, and whatever necessary materials on a bus.

As has been mentioned: if you offset parking lot usage fees by lowering train fares, people would have to feel mightily inconvenienced (somehow) to stop taking the train if there is no net rise inthe cost of doing so. I think it has more to do with the mindset of people that parking is a right if they are doing the world a "favour" by taking the train or just an inalienable right in general. Do you guys see an exodus of current users if a system under which parking usage fees implemented and train fares are lowered to offset said fee introduction?

I really shouldn't have opened a thread with "if you hate GO surface parking" in the title. Very little bothers me more. Inefficient land use at its worst.

As we've seen with the removal of the free parking privilage with metropasses that niether ridership nor parking usage declined substantially. Something that I personally was surprised about.

 

[TOareaFan]

As has been mentioned: if you offset parking lot usage fees by lowering train fares, people would have to feel mightily inconvenienced (somehow) to stop taking the train if there is no net rise inthe cost of doing so. I think it has more to do with the mindset of people that parking is a right if they are doing the world a "favour" by taking the train or just an inalienable right in general. Do you guys see an exodus of current users if a system under which parking usage fees implemented and train fares are lowered to offset said fee introduction?

Somehow this thread got a bit hijacked into a discussion about paid parking.....it was initially (and should revert) to the topic of reduced/eliminated parking caused by a potential commercial development on a main lot that is already full.

I think the two scenarios are different.

If fares were reduced and parking fees implemented such that, on the day this new fare structure started, the total daily cost was the same....I don't think it would have any material effect on usage levels (presumably there would be some irate nutter who thought that the extra minute or so it took to actually pay for the parking was enough to yell about...but I don't think that would be material). I think, however, it would have to be system-wide as if you did it in one location and not others there would be people that would leave just on the "fairness" issue.

The other matter, however, taking parking spots away in large numbers (as was the topic of this thread) I still contend will have an impact (and I think possibly material) on usage at the onset. Look at the numbers.......

Brampton station currently has 962 spots (629 in the lot under discussion). The proposal in the paper says the new project would produce 250-300 underground stalls...let's assume it is the 300 number....let's assume that only half of those were reserved for hotel guests (producing a very very low parking ratio for a hotel/convention area but ya gotta pick a number). So the total number of spots available to GO transit users drops from 962 to 483....essentially a 50% drop.

So (in this thread) the issue really is about lost parking and the effect thereof....not whether or not parking should be free....that can (and has I think) be discussed elsewhere.

So, back on topic, is a 50% drop in available parking going to help or hurt ridership numbers at Brampton GO?....I think hurt
Will the hurt be material....I don't know
Is it something to, at least, consider in deciding whether to go ahead with this proposal....most definitely.....and that is all I said at the start.

P.S.

Here is an update........ http://northpeel.com/news/article/85401

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Do you guys see an exodus of current users if a system under which parking usage fees implemented and train fares are lowered to offset said fee introduction?

Again, no one is saying that. You're seeing everything through transit zealotry goggles.

People were talking about the consequences of removing free parking at just this station...obviously the consequences of removing all free GO parking and reducing the number of spots at all GO stations would be very different.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Not so much transit zealotry goggles as hate-on for surface parking goggles.
My apologies for hijacking the thread by superimposing my issues with Pickering's problems and that of surface parking at transit terminals in general on Brampton.

To know how this reduction in parking spots would affect usage at Brampton, we'd have to know where all these users are travelling to the station from and how appealing any alternates to driving are for these users.
There are three lots at Brampton? Could they not build a parking garage structure where one of these lots is to offset the loss of parking at the main lot?

 

[TOareaFan]

Not so much transit zealotry goggles as hate-on for surface parking goggles.
My apologies for hijacking the thread by superimposing my issues with Pickering's problems and that of surface parking at transit terminals in general on Brampton.

The hijacking was not a solo act by you....but you certainly are the most passionate of the hijackers! You are the one at the front of the plane yelling "listen up passengers, we are going to talk about paid parking and surface lots!!!" (lol)

To know how this reduction in parking spots would affect usage at Brampton, we'd have to know where all these users are travelling to the station from and how appealing any alternates to driving are for these users.

With respect, we already know that for 962 cars and their occupants driving and parking is choice number 1....so we already know that removing that option for half of them will have an effect....we just don't know the materiality. They already have the choice to drive or bike or bus or walk or rollerblade or take their magic carpet ( )...but they drive...anything else (for those) will be considered a reduced (ie. less attractive) option.

There are three lots at Brampton? Could they not build a parking garage structure where one of these lots is to offset the loss of parking at the main lot?

The small lot "the north east lot" which is behind the mall at Church and Main and lower down than the main lots and buildings currently has 110 spots. In theory, I guess that could be built up a few levels to sort of match the adjacent apartment building parking lot (ie. you could only go to the height of the parking lot in the building) so I think maybe 3 or 4 stories....it is a very tight footprint and you would probably only yield about 75 - 80 spots a level (if that...you lose spots to ramps and stairs and such that aren't there now on the 110 single level lot)....so that could produce maybe 300 -320 spots (190 - 210 new) but the cost per spot would be huge!

Way back (20 or so years ago) when the south lot (153 spots) opened it was described as the "temporary" lot. It is adjacent to the old Dominion Skate building and even back then there were proposals to build there (originally it was as a union sponsored affordable housing project). As you may know, the Dominion Skate building is slated to be converted/developed into Blade condos....I have not seen any mention or confirmation but I have always presumed that this development meant the end of GO using these 153 spots (although that is based solely on my knowledge that it used to be called a temporary lot...it may be that this is now a permanent GO lot). If this lot were also going it changes the parking numbers again....and not in a positive direction!

 

[doady]

Not quite problem solved.
Main thoroughfares clogged, more likely.

Judging from all the traffic congestion in Mississauga, which has six different untolled 400-series highways, it doesn't seem liek highways have a positive effect on local traffic flow. In fact, the most congested local roads are at or near highway interchanges.

 

[SunriseChampion]

That's right....and nobody's getting any packets of peanuts til we do!

There's no provision in the development of The Blade condos for parking stalls for GO Transit users?

I know driving to the station is choice number 1 in the current context, but would it necessarily be so for as many were local transit to be improved? Are people perhaps driving from farther down the train line so as to pay less in train fare?

This is GO Transit here we're talking about though. If they are to lose that one lot to the condos and are in cahoots with the city to lose the main lot as well...they must have something up their sleeve vis a vis replacing the lost parking spots. GO Transit love their parking! Perhaps we aren't privy to all that's being planned on their behalf.

 

[Disparishun]

As we've seen with the removal of the free parking privilage with metropasses that niether ridership nor parking usage declined substantially. Something that I personally was surprised about.

Parking usage at Finch certainly declined massively. (I am not saying that's a bad thing.)

 

[TOareaFan]

That's right....and nobody's getting any packets of peanuts til we do!

There's no provision in the development of The Blade condos for parking stalls for GO Transit users?

Like I said, I am old man with a long memory. The south lot was, at one time, tied to the Dominion building. I am not sure if it lost the "temporary" designation because it became permanent or if people just stopped calling it that. I am not sure at all if parking in the south lot is touched by Blade's development or not....just wanna be clear on that.

I know driving to the station is choice number 1 in the current context, but would it necessarily be so for as many were local transit to be improved?

This discussion is about losing a lot of parking spots at one station in the current environment. I think if you start to add in too many "what ifs" it all becomes murky. There is a place for discussion about improved local transit in a more "GO Parking Lot" discussion....since, however, this proposal is not linked to improved transit and is about removing spots at this one parking lot...throwing improved transit into this discussion is just muddying the waters. If the proponent (the city) comes out and says they will improve transit to the station in conjunction with this propsoal then it would be part of the discussion. As it is they are proposing to take spots away in the current transit status/enviro.

Are people perhaps driving from farther down the train line so as to pay less in train fare?

I have heard people driving further to Bramalea...not so much because of fare but because of the extra train flexibility (there are bunch of trains that only go as far as Bramalea at present....the work/investment in Brampton is supposed to end that) haven't heard of anyone driving from Mt. Pleasant to Brampton to get lower fares but it is probably true that those on the "border" of the two stations catchment areas would likely favour Brampton as fare is a factor.

This is GO Transit here we're talking about though. If they are to lose that one lot to the condos and are in cahoots with the city to lose the main lot as well...they must have something up their sleeve vis a vis replacing the lost parking spots. GO Transit love their parking! Perhaps we aren't privy to all that's being planned on their behalf.

To be fair to GO....It is not clear how much they actually know about this. The City has been working this idea and only yesterday approved the idea to go forward for further investigation. It very well could just die quick death at the GO level or it could change and parking issues adressed.

 

[Dan416]

How hard would it be for them to replace ALL the parking spots at Brampton GO underground? Is that not feasible? Or if not all, a good portion? Say, 75%. You said there's 629 spots I think? They'd need 472 spots to retain 75% of the spots in the lot. And they're planning for possibly 300 spots? How many additional levels do almost 200 spots need?