TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[81-717]

So far.

Always gotta throw in this kind of negativity, huh? There is 0 excuse for it to be delayed further now that the contract was awarded.

Have you seen how long the H1 and H4 work cars outlasted the passenger fleet? How does it make ANY sense to convert a pair of cars to a fairly lightly used work set only to junk it together with the revenue fleet???????????

It makes as much sense as not converting ANY M1/H2/5/6 cars for same purposes. Those T1s would already end up in work service for a good 15 years (2018 – early 2030s), which is comparable to the H1/4, and with the rest of the T1 fleet gone they'll be harder to get parts for since they're not as technologically simple as the H1–4s.

 

[Admiral Beez]

That's fair. Transit police can conduct fare enforcement as well. Knowing the risk-averse culture surrounding Toronto transit, I can't see TTC security or employees getting involved in physically preventing nutters from hopping fare gates.

I was at Union Station's TTC concourse a few months ago and I woman started screeching and flaying about. Four TTC security guards were there, walked over to her and said cut it out. I'd hurried past. Upon which she walked away from them, down onto the platform and inevitably onto my train, where she began screaming at all the passengers. I thought to myself, if this transit system will not keep disruptive nutters off their property, then I won't use it unless I must. It's just so different elsewhere in the world, for example in Singapore I recall how clean the subways were and how polite and quiet everyone was. Of course a transit system can only but pull from the society in which it operates, and Toronto seems to have surrendered so much of the public realm to the addicted and mentally ill population and to the homeless industrial complex that purposely concentrates the issue into the downtown core.

 

[SubHuman]

People aren't worried about being robbed, assaulted or shoved onto the tracks by thugs. It's the nutters that we're all worried about.
If we have solid fare enforcement the need for policing will decline as the ratio of sane, sober and stable transit users increases.

I think the TTC and local authorities have had more and better trained security over about the last 12-18 months.
But the main problem seems to be that these people, who are dangerous to themselves and problematic for others, are continually apprehended, then apparently released almost immediately -- "person was said to have been apprehended three times under the Mental Health Act in a span of 24 hours ... hospital keeps releasing them".
That's not the responsibility of the TTC or the City of Toronto. It's the province that has to fix a system that is apathetic, irresponsible, and not accountable in enforcing its law.

 

[T3G]

Always gotta throw in this kind of negativity, huh? There is 0 excuse for it to be delayed further now that the contract was awarded.

As I have told you a million times, awarding a contract is only the first step in a long journey, which any point can be beset by problems. The contract may be completed on time; it does not have to be. The clock does not reset to zero now, just because they waffled on awarding the replacement contract doesn't mean there aren't more delays in the pipeline, and no one has ever estimated the turnaround time on a new rolling stock contract by counting the murky years in which actions were delayed and hemmed and hawed about. You can call acknowledging this very real fact negativity; I call it being pragmatic. And, to add, if I were superstitious, I would say that every confident assertion you make that the T1 replacement will go off without a hitch and be completed on time and the H5s will be avenged is tempting fate to make the replacement contract into an unmitigated disaster. Why you feel the need to declare victory when the battle has scarcely begun is beyond me.

But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

It makes as much sense as not converting ANY M1/H2/5/6 cars for same purposes. Those T1s would already end up in work service for a good 15 years (2018 – early 2030s), which is comparable to the H1/4, and with the rest of the T1 fleet gone they'll be harder to get parts for since they're not as technologically simple as the H1–4s.

Ever stopped to think that they had way more subway cars than they needed work cars, and that's why not every class was represented in the work car fleet?

No, of course not, you'll just wave it away as another conspiracy against the Hawkers, and by extension, you as an individual, because you're apparently the only one who never got something that they wanted out of life.

15 years is not a meaningful time frame, other properties have been known to utilize work equipment longer than that. And what will replace the T1 work cars exactly? The TRs are not designed for easy conversion for work service, so they'll either have to keep the T1s going, or they'll have to expense for new replacement work cars. Which may be the option chosen if the T1s are in bad condition, but would be an idiotic one to take if further use for less money can be extracted out of the T1.

 

[APTA-2048]

I was at Union Station's TTC concourse a few months ago and I woman started screeching and flaying about. Four TTC security guards were there, walked over to her and said cut it out. I'd hurried past. Upon which she walked away from them, down onto the platform and inevitably onto my train, where she began screaming at all the passengers. I thought to myself, if this transit system will not keep disruptive nutters off their property, then I won't use it unless I must. It's just so different elsewhere in the world, for example in Singapore I recall how clean the subways were and how polite and quiet everyone was. Of course a transit system can only but pull from the society in which it operates, and Toronto seems to have surrendered so much of the public realm to the addicted and mentally ill population and to the homeless industrial complex that purposely concentrates the issue into the downtown core.

Maybe it’s not than anyone has surrendered anything, but that the homelessness and mental health crisis is just now too big to ignore? Sounds like we should actually get serious about it instead of trying to push it under the rug and pretend like everything is ok.

 

[urbanclient]

It makes as much sense as not converting ANY M1/H2/5/6 cars for same purposes. Those T1s would already end up in work service for a good 15 years (2018 – early 2030s), which is comparable to the H1/4, and with the rest of the T1 fleet gone they'll be harder to get parts for since they're not as technologically simple as the H1–4s.

I hate that the T1s have to be replaced so early when they are not that old in the grand scheme of subway rolling stock (oldest are 31 years and counting), but I think @81-717 is right in saying new trains are more or less needed for ATC. It's not worth it to retrofit that if the useful life is maybe another 15-20 years. A new fleet should last 40 years. Frankly, the T-1s were an outdated design for something built between 1995-2001 anyways. Even if outdated, it would've been worth it to overhaul them and extend their life, were it not for the impending implementation of ATC predicated on a new signalling system etc...

If they've already converted H1s to ATC then can convert T1s

To be pedantic: When Line 1 had a mixed fleet during the early phases of the installation in the early 2010s, the non-Toronto Rockets (H series, T-1s) were never converted to be ATC-capable, certainly not the H1s that were retired in 1999? I don't know if "H1s" was a typo. Or do you mean AC air conditioning for the H1s?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Maybe it’s not than anyone has surrendered anything, but that the homelessness and mental health crisis is just now too big to ignore?

No one is suggesting the addiction, mental health and homelessness crisis should be ignored. But that's beyond the scope of the TTC.

Sounds like we should actually get serious about it instead of trying to push it under the rug and pretend like everything is ok.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone is pretending it's okay. But it's not the TTC's job to fix it. Instead the TTC must do what it can within the society it finds itself to protect its product/service, image and paying customers.

 

[81-717]

As I have told you a million times, awarding a contract is only the first step in a long journey, which any point can be beset by problems. The contract may be completed on time; it does not have to be. The clock does not reset to zero now, just because they waffled on awarding the replacement contract doesn't mean there aren't more delays in the pipeline, and no one has ever estimated the turnaround time on a new rolling stock contract by counting the murky years in which actions were delayed and hemmed and hawed about.

3–4 years from the moment the contract is sealed is plenty enough time for trains to start being delivered. It happened with the TRs in spite of production delays, and those didn't turn out an "unmitigated disaster" other than being boring & bland.

Why you feel the need to declare victory when the battle has scarcely begun is beyond me.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not declaring victory until I see it, I'm merely trying to be optimistic about achieving milestones leading up to victory in this uphill battle, while you keep trying to ruin said optimism.

Ever stopped to think that they had way more subway cars than they needed work cars, and that's why not every class was represented in the work car fleet?

No, of course not, you'll just wave it away as another conspiracy against the Hawkers, and by extension, you as an individual, because you're apparently the only one who never got something that they wanted out of life.

No, all I see is more evidence confirming my worst suspicions (the H5/6s were 100% deliberately excluded because they used an "orphan" technology).

15 years is not a meaningful time frame, other properties have been known to utilize work equipment longer than that.

Hopefully that'll be true of the surviving H4s.

And what will replace the T1 work cars exactly?

At least, no T1s should replace any of the surviving H4s, since the H4s should be easier to maintain.

The TRs are not designed for easy conversion for work service

I would hope not, nor would I ever advocate for that.

or they'll have to expense for new replacement work cars

Something they've done fairly recently.

I hate that the T1s have to be replaced so early when they are not that old in the grand scheme of subway rolling stock (oldest are 31 years and counting)

I hate that they're at risk of being replaced so late compared to previous cars, because they are that old by Toronto standards (I hate that the H6s had to be replaced so early, or didn't have to be, but were anyway).

 

[chrisw]

Video on the removal of Tunnel Fireproofing containing Abestos at North York Centre Station [5 min].

 

[APTA-2048]

No one is suggesting the addiction, mental health and homelessness crisis should be ignored. But that's beyond the scope of the TTC.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone is pretending it's okay. But it's not the TTC's job to fix it. Instead the TTC must do what it can within the society it finds itself to protect its product/service, image and paying customers.

Sure, you solve the problem on the TTC. But let’s be honest, you are just moving the problem around. It would no longer be a problem for you, but it gets passed on to someone else.

I get people don’t want to see people suffering from homelessness and mental health crises. But I just want to be clear, constantly kicking people off the TTC is not a real solution. Sure it makes people feel better. But it really just serves to keep people blind to a serious problem we have.

 

[lastcommodore]

Sure, you solve the problem on the TTC. But let’s be honest, you are just moving the problem around. It would no longer be a problem for you, but it gets passed on to someone else.

I get people don’t want to see people suffering from homelessness and mental health crises. But I just want to be clear, constantly kicking people off the TTC is not a real solution. Sure it makes people feel better. But it really just serves to keep people blind to a serious problem we have.

A couple things can be true.
1. Constantly kicking out the mentally ill & homeless is not a long term solution
2. These people are the source of the majority to overwhelming majority of passenger incidents on the TTC
3. Discouraging the use of the TTC as a "moving homeless shelter" will improve customer well-being and reduce incidents

Everyone here will agree that a permanent, long term solution is needed... I for one am in favour of the portuguese solution where these problem people would effectively be forced into rehab, for their own good. But until then, and until that solution brings its long term effects, short term solutions should be pursued.

 

[SubHuman]

.. I get people don’t want to see people suffering from homelessness and mental health crises ...
Sure it makes people feel better.

Do you get that it's not just about aesthetics? Those of us using the TTC are doing so to travel from one place to another, hopefully without as many of the continual "trespasser at track level" and "security incident" delays causing the subway lines to stop running.
It's a public transit system, not intended to be a big de facto psychiatric hospital (but one without doctors, nurses, attendants, etc., and with the added feature of the subway tracks that seem to be a magnetic attraction for so many of them).

 

[APTA-2048]

Everyone here will agree that a permanent, long term solution is needed...

I’m not sure about that. I get the feeling from a lot of posts here and in regular conversation, they just don’t want to have to personally deal with or witness it. People don’t care after that.

Do you get that it's not just about aesthetics? Those of us using the TTC are doing so to travel from one place to another, hopefully without as many of the continual "trespasser at track level" and "security incident" delays causing the subway lines to stop running.
It's a public transit system, not intended to be a big de facto psychiatric hospital (but one without doctors, nurses, attendants, etc., and with the added feature of the subway tracks that seem to be a magnetic attraction for so many of them).

Forgive me because I’ve seen too much pearl clutching over people simply sleeping on the TTC. Obviously there are problems with delays and safety.

Edit: that sounds like I’m dismissing your concerns, I want to clarify that I’m not. I was mostly referring to the perception of riders and how that can change by kicking people off the system, but ultimately not being a proper solution.

 

[generalcanada]

a reminder we have a separate thread for ttc homelessness and safety

 

[nfitz]

If you are referring to TFL, London is holding the 1972 Stock together by a thread. They are 50 years old and well beyond their design life to the point where they are no longer reliable.

Among others. Montreal's MR-63 cars started delivery in 1965 and were retired in 2018. 53 years. Montreal's MR-73s started delivery in around 1974, and are still in service 52-years later. They are planned to be replaced in 2036 - at the age of 60 years.

NYC are still retiring their R44s, with deliveries starting in 1971, and probably all gone by the end of 2026 - 55 years service. The R42s did 50 years. The R32s from 1964 were retired in 2022 - 58 years.

The 1972 London tube stock are likely to be replaced in the late 2030s or early 2040s. Well over 60-years old, might hit 70! However the 1973 stock should be gone in 2030 - only 57 years old. The final 1938 stock was withdrawn in 2021 - 80+ years. Though the final 30 or so years was by British Rail (and successors) on the Isle of Wight.

The subway in Buenos Aires is still using some some subway cars from 1954 - over 70 years old. Paris's MP 59 (very similar to Montreal's MR-63) trains were in service for over 60 years from 1963 to 2024 while their MF 67s entered service in 1968 and won't be fully retired for 2034 - over 65 years of service.

The 1972 stock is hardly an outlier. Yeah, it requires more work as it gets older. But it's 100% an option; but harder to fund maintenance than capital costs in Ontario.