Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[alexthettcguy]

@alexthettcguy. Really appreciate your response . But I am still a bit confused. When i mentioned that the the Driver/Conductor had green arrow from as far away as 300-400 meters, how could the pedestrian hand counters even be visible from that distance? And to me, there is a reason for that and it because they need not be considered or look at by any driver of any motor vehicle including transit vehicles (OK... Unless I am stopped at the intersection). They are for pedestrians only. Plus, if the car drivers get a extended green signal for 10-15 secs to go straight, that makes this behavior all the more confusing and further supports the notion, of making unnecessary stops because there is no way that a pedestrian should/would have been crossing the intersection over the tracks. Besides, jay walking could happen anytime.

I get and understand that we are talking here of motorized vehicle that is longer by far than any other road vehicle. And, I am sure that there are unique considerations at hand. And that would explain why there is the extended 10-15 seconds for motorist. But if there is risk of someone making a left turn that they shouldn't during those 10-15, then its the same risk of someone making a left turn that they shouldn't at anytime.

When you’re driving this big a vehicle, you look way ahead. When I leave Winford I’m already looking at what credit union is doing. Don’t need to know the time just that it’s counting and adjusting my speed to ensure I get a green light again. And that’s hundreds of meters away. And we have to hit that 25 kmh speed as we get audited and disciplined if we’re not so it skews things a little bit. We don’t just kill lights randomly, we want to go and get you there fast too

 

[Burnt creek]

I'll dispute this point, they are equally useful for drivers to know exactly how much time is left before green turns yellow. Unless of course the green is extended for some time after the pedestrian countdown ends, which is nice in the sense of giving drivers extra time to pass, but also not helpful in the sense that you're back to guessing & not knowing how much time you have left before green turns yellow (not to mention, why shouldn't pedestrians get the same few extra seconds to cross). Overall, I'd say it's more helpful when the countdown tells you exactly how many seconds of green are left.

Ok that's true. I used the pedestrian counter for the same reasons you do. And, I modified my initial post slightly to reflect this

 

[Amare]

It's so unfortunate to hear the TTC's consistent fear of signalized intersections, I really dont understand what's wrong with management. Their logic makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and here's a prime example:

-Restricting (the longer) 2 car LRVs to 25km/h at signalized intersections because they are afraid of potential vehicle/pedestrian interactions
-Restricting (the shorter in length) streetcars to 10km/h at signalized intersections because they are afraid of potential vehicle/pedestrian interactions

So the coupled longer vehicles, which are more likely to have any potential "interactions", are allowed a higher speed limit? I mean what?

Unfortunately, the TTC's idiotic SOPs has worked their way onto Line 5 and Line 6. It's pathetic to see this organization's management sabotaging operations because of their non-nonsensical and idiotic fears. And then taking it one step further by punishing operators who dont follow the idiotic rules.

I wont even get into the traffic light issues of giving LRVs a red light approaching an intersection before other traffic. That itself is a whole other discussion of stupidity by the city.

 

[nfitz]

-Restricting (the shorter in length) streetcars to 10km/h at signalized intersections because they are afraid of potential vehicle/pedestrian interactions[/I]

I don't believe this is correct. I literally just watched a streetcar, going uphill through a signalized intersection, at what appeared to be higher than the 40 km/hr speed limit; it certainly wasn't much lower.

Perhaps you are thinking of special track work - of which I'm not aware of there being any at intersections on Eglinton or Finch West.

 

[EnviroTO]

Purposely hitting the red, or purposely dwelling longer in the station to maintain a timetable that wasn't aggressive enough.... I think in the winter I would go with red lights vs dwelling with the doors open.

 

[nfitz]

Purposely hitting the red, or purposely dwelling longer in the station to maintain a timetable that wasn't aggressive enough.... I think in the winter I would go with red lights vs dwelling with the doors open.

If the timetable was not aggressive enough.

I expect though, it would be not granular enough, rather than not aggressive enough. You certainly see vehicles that are running late.

They've been very clear that the current timetable is not aggressive. And it will become faster as they move towards a full opening.

 

[zang]

I'll dispute this point, they are equally useful for drivers to know exactly how much time is left before green turns yellow.

That goes both ways. It becomes a way for drivers to know if they need to speed up to get themselves through in time.

The old flashing hand system put ambiguity into the equation, forcing drivers to second guess as to whether they had enough time to make it through; often opting to err on the side of caution. The same applies to pedestrians.

"After controlling other factors, the mixed-effect model results further indicate displaying a PCS (Pedestrial Countdown Signal) to drivers increase the approaching speed by approximately 11 km/h." - An empirical analysis of the effect of pedestrian signal countdown timer on driver behavior at signalized intersections; Wooseok Do, Nicolas Saunier & Luis Miranda-Moreno

In effect, if the countdowns are visible to drivers, they promote rushing through before light changes and thus make intersections less safe.

A better solution would be polarized filters on signals to allow only a very narrow viewing angle, or countdown signals at angles not visible to drivers (say, at the beg button locations). Or, just reverting to old-style flashing hands.

 

[crs1026]

That goes both ways. It becomes a way for drivers to know if they need to speed up to get themselves through in time.

The old flashing hand system put ambiguity into the equation, forcing drivers to second guess as to whether they had enough time to make it through; often opting to err on the side of caution. The same applies to pedestrians.

"After controlling other factors, the mixed-effect model results further indicate displaying a PCS (Pedestrial Countdown Signal) to drivers increase the approaching speed by approximately 11 km/h." - An empirical analysis of the effect of pedestrian signal countdown timer on driver behavior at signalized intersections; Wooseok Do, Nicolas Saunier & Luis Miranda-Moreno

In effect, if the countdowns are visible to drivers, they promote rushing through before light changes and thus make intersections less safe.

A better solution would be polarized filters on signals to allow only a very narrow viewing angle, or countdown signals at angles not visible to drivers (say, at the beg button locations). Or, just reverting to old-style flashing hands.

I could only access the abstract for that study, but while it is interesting it does not strike me as implying that PCS is unsafe.

The uncertainty over "stale green" lights is a major error likely situation for drivers in either scenario.

If flashing hands were all of uniform timing, it might make sense to rely on them. But since flashing hands may activate with ample time left before the yellow appears, drivers are tempted to ignore them altogether, or make wrong assumptions, or even fixate on the light cycle to the exclusion of focus on other inputs in the intersection.

The findings do not surprise me - ie perfectly reasonable that drivers go faster when the countdown assures them that there is time to exit the intersection safely before the yellow phase. That encourages throughput. We do not want traffic flows where all drivers slow down due to uncertainty.

There are jurisdictions where light cycles commence a flashing yellow before the solid yellow phase, to help drivers judge the time remaining.

The worst possible scenario is where the light turns yellow in a way that surprises drivers and forces a split second stop-or-gun decision. That is the most error likely and harm potential scenario, ie drivers unwisely deciding to accelerate into a yellow, or hitting the brakes hard and causing a rear end collision.. The more warning and precise data we can give drivers about light timing the better.

This probably is crossing the line into better threads eg Vision Zero, but in the context of Eglinton I would argue that the counters add safety over all, even with higher vehicular speed in the portions of the light cycle where they have the right of way.

- Paul

 

[hw621]

That goes both ways. It becomes a way for drivers to know if they need to speed up to get themselves through in time.

The old flashing hand system put ambiguity into the equation, forcing drivers to second guess as to whether they had enough time to make it through; often opting to err on the side of caution. The same applies to pedestrians.

"After controlling other factors, the mixed-effect model results further indicate displaying a PCS (Pedestrial Countdown Signal) to drivers increase the approaching speed by approximately 11 km/h." - An empirical analysis of the effect of pedestrian signal countdown timer on driver behavior at signalized intersections; Wooseok Do, Nicolas Saunier & Luis Miranda-Moreno

In effect, if the countdowns are visible to drivers, they promote rushing through before light changes and thus make intersections less safe.

A better solution would be polarized filters on signals to allow only a very narrow viewing angle, or countdown signals at angles not visible to drivers (say, at the beg button locations). Or, just reverting to old-style flashing hands.

Does this help:

V2I (Vehicle-to-Infrastructure)

In advanced pilot deployments, traffic lights can broadcast data using:
DSRC (Dedicated Short-Range Communication)
C-V2X (Cellular Vehicle-to-Everything)
5G-based systems

These systems transmit:
SPaT data (Signal Phase and Timing)
Current phase (green/yellow/red)
Time remaining
MAP data (intersection geometry)

Vehicles equipped with connected vehicle systems can:
Display countdown timers
Provide “Green Light Optimal Speed Advisory” (GLOSA)
Warn if running a red light risk is high

 

[smallspy]

And yes the TTC requires us to slow down to 25 at intersections because unfortunately car drivers do some stupid things and that slower speed helps save us from bad results more than enough times already.

Nitpick: You only have to do 25 until you have begun to occupy the intersection. Once you are into it, you can accelerate to your target speed even though you're still in the intersection.

Why would the transit signal turn red when car signals remain green? Why should trams have to stop while cars (that are going straight, not left) can keep going? Talk about "transit signal priority". If anything, trams should get an extended green to ensure they're not stopped at a red.

Because it will take a lot, lot longer for a 3-car LRV that is coming to a stop to completely clear an intersection than a 20-ish foot long car passing through at 50km/h.

Dan

 

[Bojaxs]

Purposely hitting the red, or purposely dwelling longer in the station to maintain a timetable that wasn't aggressive enough.... I think in the winter I would go with red lights vs dwelling with the doors open.

Or... you know, we could be like the rest of the world and actually utilise the buttons on the doors when stopped at stations.

 

[Amare]

I don't believe this is correct. I literally just watched a streetcar, going uphill through a signalized intersection, at what appeared to be higher than the 40 km/hr speed limit; it certainly wasn't much lower.

Perhaps you are thinking of special track work - of which I'm not aware of there being any at intersections on Eglinton or Finch West.

You had a great op who was operating streetcars like the good old days, before the TTC instituted a whole bunch of their idiotic rules.

The operating practice today is that streetcar drivers are required to slow down at signalized intersections before proceeding. I myself have experienced a handful of ops who don't do this (which is a great thing), and those are likely more senior ops who havent had the TTC's myopic practices drilled into their heads.

 

[81-717]

That goes both ways. It becomes a way for drivers to know if they need to speed up to get themselves through in time.

The old flashing hand system put ambiguity into the equation, forcing drivers to second guess as to whether they had enough time to make it through; often opting to err on the side of caution. The same applies to pedestrians.

"After controlling other factors, the mixed-effect model results further indicate displaying a PCS (Pedestrial Countdown Signal) to drivers increase the approaching speed by approximately 11 km/h." - An empirical analysis of the effect of pedestrian signal countdown timer on driver behavior at signalized intersections; Wooseok Do, Nicolas Saunier & Luis Miranda-Moreno

In effect, if the countdowns are visible to drivers, they promote rushing through before light changes and thus make intersections less safe.

A better solution would be polarized filters on signals to allow only a very narrow viewing angle, or countdown signals at angles not visible to drivers (say, at the beg button locations). Or, just reverting to old-style flashing hands.

Counterpoint: not knowing exactly how many seconds until green turns yellow is likely to make drivers more reckless, and make them "gun it" more aggressively when they see the flashing hand without the timer, knowing that green could turn yellow at any moment. With the timer, they're more likely to be able to make the right decision to either "gun it" gently & accelerate slightly, or slow down gradually & stop.

 

[Jonathan's Junction]

Part of the problem is the egregiously long countdowns at some intersections. I understand that some people require more time (elderly, disabled, etc.) but in some cases it is just too much. I literally see countdowns starting at 35 in some places for crossing 5-6 lanes of traffic.

 

[T3G]

Part of the problem is the egregiously long countdowns at some intersections. I understand that some people require more time (elderly, disabled, etc.) but in some cases it is just too much. I literally see countdowns starting at 35 in some places for crossing 5-6 lanes of traffic.

Do these countdowns come on as soon as the walk light is given? Or do they continue to use the illogical practice of putting the walk light on for a few seconds and then putting on a ridiculously long countdown coupled with the don't start crossing signal?