Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[micheal_can]

If you are going to compare cities, compare the distances and speeds between stations.

 

[zang]

The Montreal-Quebec via rail has barely sufficient frequency today (like 5-6 trains per direction), and even now, it’s already consistently full on most trains. One can easily imagine the kind of ridership boost if they even just incrementally increase frequency and cut travel time down by say 30 min.

My last two trips to-from Montreal have had a massive delay on the leg, both because we had to take a siding and weight for freight trains. As such, both were delayed longer than an hour.

Getting rid of unreliability and delays like this would go just as far, and that means either renegotiating something with the freight companies, or going it alone and building separate track. If you want a reason even more people don't take the train, it's BS like that.

 

[Urban Sky]

Looking at other countries.

In South Korea there's 3 HSR stations in Seoul on the line from Seoul to Busan, connecting to the Seoul subway system. The line is about 430 km long, with 11 stations. Definitely not downtown to downtown.

You also get high-speed 300 km/hr commuter trains. Such as on HS1 in London where they run 4 trains per hour from St. Pancras International to Kent, with two other stations in the London area. Even the HS2 line plans to add a second station eventually at Euston - less than 6 km from Old Oak Common station.

Thank you for reminding us of what I thought (hoped?) we had already established months ago:

You are right, but only to the point that many HSR networks serve more than one stop per metropolitan area.

However, these stops are usually offered in addition (i.e., as a complement, not a substitute!) to a single, central node, in order to help passengers minimize their door-to-door travel times and to facilitate access to/from a wider region:

Certain (or even all) ... trains	may stop at ...	in addition to the main stop at ...
ICE	Altona, Dammtor and/or Harburg	Hamburg Hauptbahnhof
ICE	Spandau or Gesundbrunnen and Ostbahnhof or Südkreuz	Berlin Hauptbahnhof
ICE	Pasing and/or Ostbahnhof	München Hauptbahnhof
ICE	Brussels-Noord	Brussels-Midi
ICE	Basel Badischer Bahnhof	Basel SBB
Eurostar (legacy "Thalys")	Schipol Airport	Amsterdam Centraal
Railjet	Vienna Airport	Wien Hauptbahnhof
FR/Italo	Torino Porta Susa	Torino Porta Nuova
FR/Italo	Milano Rogoredo	Milano Centrale
FR/Italo	Venezia Mestre	Venezia Santa Lucia
FR/Italo	Roma Tiburtina	Roma Termini
Snabbtag (legacy "X2000")	Copenhagen Airport	Copenhagen Central Station
TGV	Lyon Perrache	Lyon Part-Dieu
Shinkansen	Tokyo Uneo	Tokyo Station

 

[kEiThZ]

I assume three stations is not in Toronto but the GTA. Union. Scarborough. And Durham. No?

And wouldn't that make sense for the catchment to reduce backtracking for users. At minimum there needs to be a GTA East station.

 

[nfitz]

I assume three stations is not in Toronto but the GTA. Union. Scarborough. And Durham. No?

Depends. It's about 25-km as the crow flies to Durham (Scarborough is huge!). If you were heading west, I'd agree with that. But if you look at HS1 in London, the first station (that none of the long-distance high-speed trains stop at) is only at the 8-km mark, still within Greater London. Now the next one is about 32 km away from the start; but if there was one at 25-km, I don't see that would be an issue. The first HS2 station (if they ever extend it to "downtown") will be only 7-km out (though there are no plans for a second - mostly because there's some excellent 125 km/hr lines already).

But does it matter how many stations there in the city there are, if most or all of the ones going all the way to Montreal don't stop there? It's not like the VIA train to Montreal stops at every commuter station along the Lakeshore East and Rigaud/Dorion commuter lines.

 

[micheal_can]

Depends. It's about 25-km as the crow flies to Durham (Scarborough is huge!). If you were heading west, I'd agree with that. But if you look at HS1 in London, the first station (that none of the long-distance high-speed trains stop at) is only at the 8-km mark, still within Greater London. Now the next one is about 32 km away from the start; but if there was one at 25-km, I don't see that would be an issue. The first HS2 station (if they ever extend it to "downtown") will be only 7-km out (though there are no plans for a second - mostly because there's some excellent 125 km/hr lines already).

But does it matter how many stations there in the city there are, if most or all of the ones going all the way to Montreal don't stop there? It's not like the VIA train to Montreal stops at every commuter station along the Lakeshore East and Rigaud/Dorion commuter lines.

As I understand it,Via does not stop outwardly to allow people off,and inwardly to let people on as to not compete with the commuter services. If ALTO does change that, it could actually mean less revenue as more seats are empty for more of the trip due to riding a short distance. This does speak to adding service that is express, but only goes out a shorter distance and only stops at those stations. That could be the future for some GO service.

 

[McGillicuddy]

But does it matter how many stations there in the city there are, if most or all of the ones going all the way to Montreal don't stop there? It's not like the VIA train to Montreal stops at every commuter station along the Lakeshore East and Rigaud/Dorion commuter lines.

My sense is that, if this service doesn't stop in Port Hope, four weird men are gonna hold their breath until they turn blue.

 

[micheal_can]

My sense is that, if this service doesn't stop in Port Hope, four weird men are gonna hold their breath until they turn blue.

It won't go anywhere near there. So, we will have a Canadian Blue Man Group?

 

[Bojaxs]

I assume three stations is not in Toronto but the GTA. Union. Scarborough. And Durham. No?

And wouldn't that make sense for the catchment to reduce backtracking for users. At minimum there needs to be a GTA East station.

Some people on this forum have speculated that ALTO might run along the Stouffville corridor. If true, than they should construct a stop at Unionville where it could help connect riders with a future 407 transitway and the Stouffville GO line. But after that, I would make the next stop Union station.

 

[lenaitch]

Obviously the fastest trains will not stop at every station. Why make it difficult to do a high speed commuter run to (say if on the Lakeshore) to Port Hope, with stops at East Harbour, Pickering, and Oshawa (for example - and approximate location-wise, not at the existing platforms).

We have not seen any suggestion that HSR will run along the lakeshore.

Some people on this forum have speculated that ALTO might run along the Stouffville corridor. If true, than they should construct a stop at Unionville where it could help connect riders with a future 407 transitway and the Stouffville GO line. But after that, I would make the next stop Union station.

Following that alignment will make for a very slow GTA portion of the route. Actually, all of the existing ROWs will, but going directly through the middle of both Markham and Unionville townsites, plus all the at-grade crossings, will make for a slow trip.

 

[McGillicuddy]

At this point I'm starting to believe that HSR will use Doug Ford's 401 tunnel, with the station at the 407 subway stop.

 

[Bojaxs]

Following that alignment will make for a very slow GTA portion of the route. Actually, all of the existing ROWs will, but going directly through the middle of both Markham and Unionville townsites, plus all the at-grade crossings, will make for a slow trip.

You don't actually think they'll maintain the at-grade crossings if they decide to run HSR down this route, do you? I would imagine the Stouffville line would see a lot of upgrading.

I'm referencing the "GO construction" thread where some people are speculating the slow down in Stouffville construction is because Ontario might be working something out with the Feds regarding ALTO.

EDIT: I take back my earlier suggestion for Unionville. It seems people in the GO construction thread are suggesting that ALTO would follow the CPKC track alignment and then turn south onto the Stouffville line at West highland creek. So ALTO wouldn't even pass Unionville.

 

[Northern Light]

EDIT: I take back my earlier suggestion for Unionville. It seems people in the GO construction thread are suggesting that ALTO would follow the CPKC track alignment and then turn south onto the Stouffville line at West highland creek. So ALTO wouldn't even pass Unionville.

Correct, every modeled version to date shows the service using CPKC to exit Toronto.

 

[bpbpbpbp]

Am I the only one who does’t really like the idea of the Stouffvile line being shared out of Toronto? Just sounds like a mess with GO waiting to happen, the Don route would be ALTO only, getting onto North Toronto which could easily be dedicated from CPKC. Rather than sharing with GO in an already tight corridor with 2 GO lines, a weird situation at Scarborough Junction and all the internediate GO stops?

I know that GO 2.0 has the Richmond Hill reallignment mentioned, but that’s a pipe dream, so it looks like the Don route would be all ALTO from the jump.

 

[Voltz]

Am I the only one who does’t really like the idea of the Stouffvile line being shared out of Toronto? Just sounds like a mess with GO waiting to happen, the Don route would be ALTO only, getting onto North Toronto which could easily be dedicated from CPKC. Rather than sharing with GO in an already tight corridor with 2 GO lines, a weird situation at Scarborough Junction and all the internediate GO stops?

I know that GO 2.0 has the Richmond Hill reallignment mentioned, but that’s a pipe dream, so it looks like the Dom route would be all ALTO from the jump.

I do think that going up the Don branch is better also, especially since the Ontario line took tracks away from the lakeshore corridor.