GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[smallspy]

Yes below 50-60 km/h there is virtually no acceleration difference. You are totally right about that. But the top end speed matters. Are we seriously "ummm actually"ing whether or not EMUs are faster in general than DMUs to accelerate to 100 km/h? The fallacy of exception much? If operating top speeds are above 140 km/h (as is on UP and GO), then the vast majority of EMUs are faster than DMUs, all other factors being equal.

The only hope of reducing travel times on the UP Express if two more stations are added is with EMUs; and maybe not just any old EMUs, maybe we need express metro rolling stock and other improvements:

Exception, The Fallacy of

[glossary_exclude]The argument that a principle is contradicted (not merely qualified) by exceptions. The possibility of understanding an issue can be blocked by an instance in which it does not apply. Example: “Too many exams make children depressed and demoralised.” “Not at all—our

leanlogic.online

This has nothing to do with following through with the exception fallacy, and everything to do with real life observations and the state of the railway.

To consider:
- The line has a speed limit of 75mph for much of it, with lower speed limits in many places and for much of its distance. (Weston Tunnel, West Toronto Tunnel, Pearson Sub, crossovers at the Wice Plant, south of Queen Street, etc.)
- There are going to be many stops (what are we up to now, Bloor, St. Clair, Eglinton, Weston and Woodbine Racetrack?), which means that a LOT of the run is going to be spent accelerating or decelerating.
- Because of the above, the amount of time spent above the 35 or 40mph crossover point in which electric power is superior is limited.

Will an EMU operate over the line quicker? Yes.

Will it do so substantially quicker? It might save a minute or two or three end-to-end, but it's not going to match the schedule when there were only 2 stops.

To be clear, I am not arguing against EMUs - they are the superior choice and especially when it comes to stop-intensive commuter services. But there is a lot of rose-coloured glass wearing in terms of what their abilities are. We need to be realistic about things. The equipment currently used by the UPX is pretty good - EMUs are going to make it better, but they're not going to wave away all of the deficiencies in the line or how it is operated.

Dan

 

[T3G]

Removal of the Kennedy station second platform and double track, and the Mount Joy tail track, makes me suspect they have descoped the Stouffville line altogether. If the West Highland bridge is years away, no need for anything to be done urgently at Scarborough Jct.... although I agree it'x not the best interlocking layout even now.

- Paul

I haven't been to Kennedy in forever, does anyone have any pics of what the platforms look like now?

Hard to believe they'd actually be so stupid as to actively remove constructed infrastructure, but you never know with these clowns at the helm.

 

[cbrown2009]

I haven't been to Kennedy in forever, does anyone have any pics of what the platforms look like now?

Hard to believe they'd actually be so stupid as to actively remove constructed infrastructure, but you never know with these clowns at the helm.

No pics but having passed through there last weekend, I can tell you they didn’t actually demolish the (west) platform. But neither have they continued the work of dismantling the SRT ramps so the platform could be completed. So it sits, unfinished and now unused, much like the other 2nd platforms up the line.. Even things like the elevator between the east platform and TTC access tunnel are very unfinished..

 

[crs1026]

I haven't been to Kennedy in forever, does anyone have any pics of what the platforms look like now?

Hard to believe they'd actually be so stupid as to actively remove constructed infrastructure, but you never know with these clowns at the helm.

I probably should have been clearer - what was removed was simply the listing - ie completion of the second platform and its trackage as an upcoming project was previously on thenlist ofnupcoming work, but now it isn’t. And not removing the platform itself.
The new west platform is certainly quite far along, but it’s a white elephant until there is a second track.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

 

[cplchanb]

I probably should have been clearer - what was removed was simply the listing - ie completion of the second platform and its trackage as an upcoming project was previously on thenlist ofnupcoming work, but now it isn’t. And not removing the platform itself.
The new west platform is certainly quite far along, but it’s a white elephant until there is a second track.

- Paul

its a shame really...this is exactly what happens when ML decides to kick the can down the road and let the project drag out. prices creep up, scope gets diluted and everyone loses out.
who will answer for these brand new unused stations that will probably stay that way until the end of the decade unless they pull their heads out of their asses...

 

[reaperexpress]

(Crossposting from the ALTO thread)

If Urban is right, could this be a reason why theres such a lack of movement on the remaining ST line projects + re-engineering highland creek bridge?

Maybe Alto is part of the reason they're in no hurry to get the Highland Creek bridge unstuck, given that that's the location where Alto would be joining the corridor. But I don't think Alto can be an excuse to delay the other projects in the pipeline. The Mount Joy second platform is necessary to extend half-hourly service north of Unionville, which makes no difference to Alto since they won't use that part of the corridor. The second platform at Kennedy is just an extension of the existing double-track segment that GO uses for 30-minute service during peak periods. So its benefit is primarily a speed and reliability improvement for existing services, not an increase in frequency. The latest "mission" for the Stouffville line is only 4 trains per hour between Unionville and Union, so I don't think there'd be any need to build any additional tracks for Alto at Kennedy. All trains would stop there so there's no need for an overtaking opportunity.

Maybe having intercity trains on Stouffville between Highland Creek and Union would affect their decision to delete the Scarbrough Junction rail-to-rail grade separation, to let Alto trains access the express tracks on the quad-tracked segment between Scarborough Junction and Union. But I doubt it. Unless the feds force them to play nice with Alto, Metrolinx would presumably just do what they do to Via and make Alto trains plod along behind GO local trains on the same track.

Here's a conceptual layout I made back in the HFR days, but I think it would still apply to Alto. The main difference compared to the current plans is that Scarborough station is on the Lakeshore East local service rather than the Stouffville line, to minimize the speed differential between Stouffville line trains and intercity trains.

There would also be non-revenue track connections not shown on the map.

 

[cplchanb]

Maybe Alto is part of the reason they're in no hurry to get the Highland Creek bridge unstuck, given that that's the location where Alto would be joining the corridor. But I don't think Alto can be an excuse to delay the other projects in the pipeline. The Mount Joy second platform is necessary to extend half-hourly service north of Unionville, which makes no difference to Alto since they won't use that part of the corridor. The second platform at Kennedy is just an extension of the existing double-track segment that GO uses for 30-minute service during peak periods. So its benefit is primarily a speed and reliability improvement for existing services, not an increase in frequency. The latest "mission" for the Stouffville line is only 4 trains per hour between Unionville and Union, so I don't think there'd be any need to build any additional tracks for Alto at Kennedy. All trains would stop there so there's no need for an overtaking opportunity.

Maybe having intercity trains on Stouffville between Highland Creek and Union would affect their decision to delete the Scarbrough Junction rail-to-rail grade separation, to let Alto trains access the express tracks on the quad-tracked segment between Scarborough Junction and Union. But I doubt it. Unless the feds force them to play nice with Alto, Metrolinx would presumably just do what they do to Via and make Alto trains plod along behind GO local trains on the same track.

Here's a conceptual layout I made back in the HFR days, but I think it would still apply to Alto. The main difference compared to the current plans is that Scarborough station is on the Lakeshore East local service rather than the Stouffville line, to minimize the speed differential between Stouffville line trains and intercity trains.

There would also be non-revenue track connections not shown on the map. Obviously the quad-track segment at Lawrence east is only required if they build that station.

Alto is so far down the road that it shouldnt be part of the conversation. they can always upgrade the section next decade.

 

[crs1026]

The ducks-in-a-row challenges in all of this are truly vexing. Just suppose in the end Alto wants to use the Kennedy route but the flat-junction idea is discarded (while I don’t expect HSR to go full tilt all the way to Jarvis Street, the combined delays attributable to curvature plus interleaving with local trains in the Kennedy route do make me prefet the flyover idea). If that flyover isn’t built promptly, in worst case we could see the Kingston Sub reduced to 2 tracks all the way to Guildwood thanks to the green zone construction approach. And if so, that takes the sense of urgency away from Birchmount and Danforth… and everybody resta on their oars.
Possibly ML has a firm answer that they simply aren’t sharing, but this really is critical path to getting things built.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

ML/Onxpress has built a 3-track diversion around the Woodbine station construction site. Not yet cut in, but pretty quick work.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Nov 27
More up on my site

There are two hydro towers in the rail corridor with one could be at the south end of the northbound platform but the one south of Eglinton needs to be removed. They have the signal mast to the north.

 

[reaperexpress]

I'll take "GO Transit construction" for $100 please.

Nov 27
More up on my site

There are two hydro towers in the rail corridor with one could be at the south end of the northbound platform but the one south of Eglinton needs to be removed. They have the signal mast to the north.

What is "Caledonia station on the Barrie line"?

 

[crs1026]

Seems some things got done on the Barrie Line this past weekend - not sure how this impacted the Kitchener line

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

Maybe Alto is part of the reason they're in no hurry to get the Highland Creek bridge unstuck, given that that's the location where Alto would be joining the corridor. But I don't think Alto can be an excuse to delay the other projects in the pipeline. The Mount Joy second platform is necessary to extend half-hourly service north of Unionville, which makes no difference to Alto since they won't use that part of the corridor. The second platform at Kennedy is just an extension of the existing double-track segment that GO uses for 30-minute service during peak periods. So its benefit is primarily a speed and reliability improvement for existing services, not an increase in frequency. The latest "mission" for the Stouffville line is only 4 trains per hour between Unionville and Union, so I don't think there'd be any need to build any additional tracks for Alto at Kennedy. All trains would stop there so there's no need for an overtaking opportunity.

Maybe having intercity trains on Stouffville between Highland Creek and Union would affect their decision to delete the Scarbrough Junction rail-to-rail grade separation, to let Alto trains access the express tracks on the quad-tracked segment between Scarborough Junction and Union. But I doubt it. Unless the feds force them to play nice with Alto, Metrolinx would presumably just do what they do to Via and make Alto trains plod along behind GO local trains on the same track.

Here's a conceptual layout I made back in the HFR days, but I think it would still apply to Alto. The main difference compared to the current plans is that Scarborough station is on the Lakeshore East local service rather than the Stouffville line, to minimize the speed differential between Stouffville line trains and intercity trains.

There would also be non-revenue track connections not shown on the map. Obviously the quad-track segment at Lawrence east is only required if they build that station.

I‘d like to just add the perspective of a Rail Operations Analyst to that final sentence:

• If the suburban train goes into a siding track, it will lose a bit of time due to speed restrictions entering/leaving that track and a lot more (maybe 2 minutes), while waiting for the intercity train to overtake. That intercity train will have a longer dwell time at Kennedy than the suburban train, thus delaying the latter even more.
• Conversely, even if you let the suburban train wait for a minute in order to let the intercity train merge into the shared segment first, it will suffer no further delays, as the additional stop at Lawrence will buy the intercity train enough time to finish its stop at Kennedy (despite the longer dwell time) without slowing down the suburban train.

In general, siding tracks only start to work efficiently for your purposes (let intercity trains swim in suburban traffic and overtake the latter without causing delays) if they allow the faster train to bypass at least two station stops of the slower train at a time…

 

[crs1026]

In general, siding tracks only start to work efficiently for your purposes (let intercity trains swim in suburban traffic and overtake the latter without causing delays) if they allow the faster train to bypass at least two station stops at a time…

Another thing that helps is if the blocks (fixed or virtual) are short enough that the signalling doesn't force the train to decelerate until it actually needs to.

If the blocks are long, the overtaking train gets restrictive signals while a long way behind, and travels further at slow speeds until the route clears and it reaches a signal that can convey that.

Signal spacing needs to be similar to what exists on the Kitchener line, as opposed to what exists today on the Barrie or Stouffville lines.

- Paul