TTC: Streetcar Network

[drum118]

I agree with those stops to be remove as well Vaughan been added to the list. I call for those stops decades ago and was shot down TTC staff back then. The Old Stock Yard and Tweedsmuir's were dumb as it was only a short walk to the Gunn Loop and the Spadina West Loop. Vaughan was a pure joke so close to Bathurst. It was a toss-up between Northcliff and Glenhome.

You will get the usually pushback by the locals and ward councilors, but time to override them as well on all routs in the nextwork.

 

[Steve X]

The problem wasn't as bad with CLRVs. Those doors pop open and close quickly. In 15 seconds, the car is moving again. Being half the length running more frequent, the chances and number of of riders taking their time is much lower. Once they swap to Flexitys, dwelling time increased. It took longer to complete each trip as doors opened and closed slowly, more people are getting on/off as well as the ramp needs to be deployed at times. The stopping distance is no longer optimum for the entire network.

The whole streetcar operation needs a big rework. Low usage stops need to be yanked out. Signal priority needs to be more aggressive. Stops should be move back 5-10 metres from the stop line to allow the streetcars to load when a couple cars ahead are stopped at a red light. Improved safety features such as signs with yellow flashing warning lights and painted roadway to indicate the exact position where streetcars stop would help. I do think they should have car passing zones every few blocks to allow cars to safely to pass streetcars to avoid building up too much traffic behind a streetcar while cars are all parked on the curb lane. This could be building more island platforms.

 

[zang]

The problem wasn't as bad with CLRVs. Those doors pop open and close quickly. In 15 seconds, the car is moving again. Being half the length running more frequent, the chances and number of of riders taking their time is much lower. Once they swap to Flexitys, dwelling time increased. It took longer to complete each trip as doors opened and closed slowly, more people are getting on/off as well as the ramp needs to be deployed at times. The stopping distance is no longer optimum for the entire network.

I'm not sure it's as easy as that. I saw so many more people fall when the CLRVs started moving, especially those who'd just gotten up the steps when the train started motion. The weight difference likely allowed the CLRVs to accelerate and get to cruising speed faster. And to be frank, there were just fewer cars on the road even when the CLRVs were at the end of their lives.

The whole streetcar operation needs a big rework. Low usage stops need to be yanked out. Signal priority needs to be more aggressive. Stops should be move back 5-10 metres from the stop line to allow the streetcars to load when a couple cars ahead are stopped at a red light. Improved safety features such as signs with yellow flashing warning lights and painted roadway to indicate the exact position where streetcars stop would help. I do think they should have car passing zones every few blocks to allow cars to safely to pass streetcars to avoid building up too much traffic behind a streetcar while cars are all parked on the curb lane. This could be building more island platforms.

I agree on most of this, but honestly, relegating street parking to side streets only is the first thing that would improve the situation, at little or no cost. We really need to shake this mindset that on-street parking is a requirement for a functioning city.

 

[reaperexpress]

The fact that the TTC is even considering this is pretty astonishing. I dont know what sparked this but whatever it is, it's refreshing to see.

Now let's see if all or even part of this gets implemented, and can get through residents in the area who will no doubt bring pitch forks to protest this.

The TTC has been trying to remove closely-spaced stops for over a decade. This is not unusual.

 

[nfitz]

The TTC has been trying to remove closely-spaced stops for over a decade. This is not unusual.

It's not even the first time for streetcars. Perhaps the first time for 512. Hopefully they visit 510 next.

 

[Northern Light]

The TTC has been trying to remove closely-spaced stops for over a decade. This is not unusual.

Yes, but in fairness to @Amare there have few high visibility exercises as it pertains to the streetcar network and none that I can think of that looked at entire line/route all at once.

The last big exercises that had some public profile that I can recall were the wholesale removal of 'Sunday stops' and the thinning of the downtown stops from Church to John or so on the E-W downtown routes. (generally removing Victoria and Simcoe)

So I do hope the St. Clair exercises is successful (and they add Bathurst-Vaughan); then do Spadina.

Then start to expand the exercise, whether they go route by route or just all the downtown routes E-W from Broadview to Bathurst it would be welcome.

 

[reaperexpress]

Yes, but in fairness to @Amare there have few high visibility exercises as it pertains to the streetcar network and none that I can think of that looked at entire line/route all at once.

The last big exercises that had some public profile that I can recall were the wholesale removal of 'Sunday stops' and the thinning of the downtown stops from Church to John or so on the E-W downtown routes. (generally removing Victoria and Simcoe)

So I do hope the St. Clair exercises is successful (and they add Bathurst-Vaughan); then do Spadina.

Then start to expand the exercise, whether they go route by route or just all the downtown routes E-W from Broadview to Bathurst it would be welcome.

Not only did they look at entire routes at once, they looked at the entire streetcar network at once:

https://web.archive.org/web/2017072...cs/mmis/2014/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-72328.pdf

 

[Northern Light]

Not only did they look at entire routes at once, they looked at the entire streetcar network at once:

https://web.archive.org/web/2017072...cs/mmis/2014/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-72328.pdf

In 2014! That was 11 years ago! You were still in school, LOL

I remember that report.... but you, I, and Steve Munro might the only people who remember it outside of the authors.

But since you reminded me, lets' see what got implemented there.

Queen/Brooklyn did not get removed. The others on the eastern portion of 501 were addressed as proposed.

On the west, Beaconsfield/Abell survived.

Dundas/Chestnut survived.

Dundas/Sheridan is still there.

Bloor/Bathurst did not get chopped.

506 was not addressed at all for stop removals.

***

It should be noted that the report only claims to have addressed stops under 200M apart. So anything over that would not have been examined.

 

[nfitz]

I remember that report.... but you, I, and Steve Munro might the only people who remember it outside of the authors.

I literally just obliquely referred to it, when I said they didn't look at 510 and 512 before. That report was before.

 

[reaperexpress]

In 2014! That was 11 years ago! You were still in school, LOL

I remember that report.... but you, I, and Steve Munro might the only people who remember it outside of the authors.

But since you reminded me, lets' see what got implemented there.

Queen/Brooklyn did not get removed. The others on the eastern portion of 501 were addressed as proposed.

On the west, Beaconsfield/Abell survived.

Dundas/Chestnut survived.

Dundas/Sheridan is still there.

Bloor/Bathurst did not get chopped.

506 was not addressed at all for stop removals.

***

It should be noted that the report only claims to have addressed stops under 200M apart. So anything over that would not have been examined.

I worked with said authors to implement said report, and I can assure you that they did also examine things over 200m. They just didn't include them in the report because they wanted to ensure that it had a decent chance of getting approved.

As far as I'm aware, this was the most successful stop rationalization program the TTC had ever done up to that point, so it seems like that strategy worked out. Though obviously it is disappointing that a large portion of the program got vetoed by City councillors, both before and after it was approved.

 

[reaperexpress]

Bloor/Bathurst did not get chopped.

It did get chopped, it's only served overnight when the Bloor bus is running.

 

[Northern Light]

It did get chopped, it's only served overnight when the Bloor bus is running.

Ha! You made me look, because it shows up on the 511 daytime schedule.

But when you drill down, the stop is called on by the 511 exactly once a week on Sunday mornings at ~8am.

 

[reaperexpress]

Ha! You made me look, because it shows up on the 511 daytime schedule.

But when you drill down, the stop is called on by the 511 exactly once a week on Sunday mornings at ~8am.

Yeah it's awkward because on Sunday mornings the Bathurst streetcar starts earlier than the subway. There was the same issue when removing the northbound stop at Broadview & Danforth, with several 504 trips arriving there after the subway has shut down for the night. The TTC decided to not list the daytime streetcar routes on the physical signs to minimize confusion, but GTFS data doesn't really support that kind of strategic concealment.

Bathurst & Bloor:

Broadview & Danforth:

 

[reaperexpress]

The problem wasn't as bad with CLRVs. Those doors pop open and close quickly. In 15 seconds, the car is moving again. Being half the length running more frequent, the chances and number of of riders taking their time is much lower. Once they swap to Flexitys, dwelling time increased. It took longer to complete each trip as doors opened and closed slowly, more people are getting on/off as well as the ramp needs to be deployed at times. The stopping distance is no longer optimum for the entire network.

I did some dwell time studies during the CLRV to Flexity transitions and I found that the minimum dwell time is indeed longer on Flexities (about 18s vs about 11s for a CLRV), but the net increase per additional boarding/alighting was drastically less with the Flexities because they have more doors and no flight of stairs. So on average the dwell time was actually about the same, and the fact that the dwell times are more consistent regardless of passenger volume helps reduce bunching compared to the CLRVs.

The whole streetcar operation needs a big rework. Low usage stops need to be yanked out. Signal priority needs to be more aggressive. Stops should be move back 5-10 metres from the stop line to allow the streetcars to load when a couple cars ahead are stopped at a red light. Improved safety features such as signs with yellow flashing warning lights and painted roadway to indicate the exact position where streetcars stop would help.

I think everyone agrees with this. We need to speed up the streetcars. I don't think flashing warning lights at streetcar stops is practical given the number of stops, and given that there are already warning lights on the streetcar, but painting the stopping locations would be nice.

I do think they should have car passing zones every few blocks to allow cars to safely to pass streetcars to avoid building up too much traffic behind a streetcar while cars are all parked on the curb lane. This could be building more island platforms.

Allowing cars to pass streetcars slows down streetcar service because it increases the traffic queue in front of the streetcar at the next traffic signal. When there are no passing locations, streetcars actually move pretty quickly since traffic is all stuck behind them, not in front. See for example on Roncesvalles.

 

[APTA-2048]

I did some dwell time studies during the CLRV to Flexity transitions and I found that the minimum dwell time is indeed longer on Flexities (about 18s vs about 11s for a CLRV), with net increase per additional boarding/alighting was drastically less with the Flexities because they have more doors and no flight of stairs. So on average the dwell time was actually about the same, and the fact that the dwell times are more consistent regardless of passenger volume helps reduce bunching compared to the CLRVs.

Was that before or after the TTC slowed down the doors of the LFLRVs?