Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[UrbanAffair]

But you realize that removing the highway would also thoroughly screw over all the people who use GO buses to get into the city, right?

Why would less highways screw over people coming by bus? Buses can only go on highways? I'm talking about dissuading vehicular demand, not removing it entirely.

 

[zang]

But you realize that removing the highway would also thoroughly screw over all the people who use GO buses to get into the city, right?

For the most part, GO buses going downtown are after (very limited) hours replacements for train lines. Run trains more frequently and all hours and you don’t need the buses. Anything else can be connected to trains west/east of the Gardiner

 

[T3G]

Why would less highways screw over people coming by bus? Buses can only go on highways? I'm talking about dissuading vehicular demand, not removing it entirely.

There is a minority of the population that consider cars to be a status symbol, and themselves to be too good to take transit. But the vast majority of people rely on driving because we simply don't have a robust transit system. If you're coming from a place like Milton, for example, using the GO bus is an exercise in masochism. It's slow, it's unreliable, it's infrequent, and as someone who dreams of having proper transit connections to the city out in Milton, the only reason I don't drive is because we're a one car family. Apparently, to the entire province, people who live along the line are total chumps whose time doesn't matter.

So if you remove the highway, without an appropriate expansion in transit service, what do you think will happen to the buses? Will GO 21 buses idling in traffic on Lakeshore, or Queen, along with all the cars that have been displaced from the highway due to a lack of usable alternatives improve the experience in some way?

For the most part, GO buses going downtown are after (very limited) hours replacements for train lines. Run trains more frequently and all hours and you don’t need the buses. Anything else can be connected to trains west/east of the Gardiner

Sure. But how? We live in a cronyist society where freight lines hold passengers hostage. How can this status quo be challenged? Whatever it would cost to bully Canadian Pacific off the Galt subdivision I would venture is magnitudes higher than what it costs to maintain the Gardiner. And it doesn't help that even this forum is full of people who seem to be against spending any kind of money to improve the situation on the Milton line in the short to medium term, citing that the cost to benefit ratio is higher when you spend construction money on other lines. (Funny, though, how this is not a concern when it comes to building underground subways to Scarborough, Etobicoke, Vaughan, or Richmond Hill).

So, does anyone have any actual ideas? Everyone is against the Gardiner existing, everyone is against paying CP their criminal ransom, and in the meantime Milton and the more northern parts of Mississauga are not getting any smaller, more and people keep moving there, and the best that the shmucks at GO can offer is single decker buses running once an hour (contrasted against a rush hour train frequency of 15-30 minutes), which we are now proposing in this thread should be directed off the highway and waste even more of our time. Hard not to understand why people who use this line might feel like third class citizens.

 

[nfitz]

For the most part, GO buses going downtown are after (very limited) hours replacements for train lines. Run trains more frequently and all hours and you don’t need the buses. Anything else can be connected to trains west/east of the Gardiner

Indeed. I struggle to understand what GO buses we'll be seeing in downtown once we have full service on all 5 lines, other than perhaps Milton - and even those vanish after the promised full service starts on the Milton line.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It has been studied to death scientifically. (May I never have to take another land economics course.) The traffic will return to congested levels that existed before the lane closures, that's how induced demand works. It's behavioral. Hard to say exactly how long it will take, but I would wager by early next year it will be as it was before the lane closures, and we should check back in two years and see how it is going - my guess is the congestion will be nearly as bad as it was during the closures, as almost everyone who changed their behavior to avoid it, returns, plus new people who see an opportunity. I'd be really curious to see how it is then.

Most European cities have ring roads, most do not have a highway literally through the downtown, they use feeder routes instead. The anatomy of European cities disincentivizes travel with a car in the centres which makes those highways even las. I travel to Switzerland a lot to see extended family, and we really never drive in to Zurich, unless completely necessary. Most don't. It's faster and more relaxing by SBB, though costs more. But my point is this mindset permeates most of Europe, I would argue.

I think Boston or Montreal are better examples of urban highways done well than Chicago as well, where highways go through the core of a city. The B10, and other examples are the exception, and the B10 has been covered over in many areas, or trenched. I'd settle for a trenched Gardiner, though would vastly prefer a tunneled one, if we can't have a boulevard coming in from the outskirts. But all of these dreams I hold on to would be costly, as they would represent a full shift in our approach to transit and moving people in cities, and would probably require a cultural shift which I don't think we are ready for here.

The problem with induced demand is that it is real, just very frequently misconstrued. It's a far more complex topic than the "one more lane bro" type joke implies and there are trade-offs in transit vs. highway expansion.

 

[UrbanAffair]

There is a minority of the population that consider cars to be a status symbol, and themselves to be too good to take transit. But the vast majority of people rely on driving because we simply don't have a robust transit system. If you're coming from a place like Milton, for example, using the GO bus is an exercise in masochism. It's slow, it's unreliable, it's infrequent, and as someone who dreams of having proper transit connections to the city out in Milton, the only reason I don't drive is because we're a one car family. Apparently, to the entire province, people who live along the line are total chumps whose time doesn't matter.

So if you remove the highway, without an appropriate expansion in transit service, what do you think will happen to the buses? Will GO 21 buses idling in traffic on Lakeshore, or Queen, along with all the cars that have been displaced from the highway due to a lack of usable alternatives improve the experience in some way?


Sure. But how? We live in a cronyist society where freight lines hold passengers hostage. How can this status quo be challenged? Whatever it would cost to bully Canadian Pacific off the Galt subdivision I would venture is magnitudes higher than what it costs to maintain the Gardiner. And it doesn't help that even this forum is full of people who seem to be against spending any kind of money to improve the situation on the Milton line in the short to medium term, citing that the cost to benefit ratio is higher when you spend construction money on other lines. (Funny, though, how this is not a concern when it comes to building underground subways to Scarborough, Etobicoke, Vaughan, or Richmond Hill).

So, does anyone have any actual ideas? Everyone is against the Gardiner existing, everyone is against paying CP their criminal ransom, and in the meantime Milton and the more northern parts of Mississauga are not getting any smaller, more and people keep moving there, and the best that the shmucks at GO can offer is single decker buses running once an hour (contrasted against a rush hour train frequency of 15-30 minutes), which we are now proposing in this thread should be directed off the highway and waste even more of our time. Hard not to understand why people who use this line might feel like third class citizens.

I'm all for improving the service on ALL lines, including Milton. I can't speak to the CN/CP control over rails - I don't know enough about those barriers to better transit. I can only speak from the perspective of land economics regarding lanes on highways and my experience with better transit elsewhere.

I do think the Go buses in our current system will be idling regardless of the road they are on, unless they had access to transit only lanes on roads, which I would also support. I also think like other places with congestion, the congestion alone will dissuade many people from taking their 'status symbols' with them to work. But I think my main point was that this would really need to be delivered in conjunction with a massive increase in transit spending to get to where things are are you approach major termini in European centres. But, I will admit I don't know the details on how to get there from a transit perspective. I imagine you would need fast, timely trains and accurate timed connections across other modes of transit.

Sorry to bring this up again, but I know in Switzerland all the forms of transit; from trains, to buses, to boats, to funiculars and trams, are timed to each other. So you can book everything in one place (SBB) and your journey will be timed out for efficiency. They get upset when a train is a minute late, because it could have down journey impact. Why can't we have nice plans like this? Anyway, I am sure I have gone OT too much.

 

[torontowest91]

they should just convert a lane on each side for Ontario line tracks from exhibition all the way out to sherway gardens... have a stop at Parklawn/Lakeshore and maybe at Islington/Gardiner... end at Sherway.

 

[turbanplanner]

I'm all for improving the service on ALL lines, including Milton. I can't speak to the CN/CP control over rails - I don't know enough about those barriers to better transit. I can only speak from the perspective of land economics regarding lanes on highways and my experience with better transit elsewhere.

I do think the Go buses in our current system will be idling regardless of the road they are on, unless they had access to transit only lanes on roads, which I would also support. I also think like other places with congestion, the congestion alone will dissuade many people from taking their 'status symbols' with them to work. But I think my main point was that this would really need to be delivered in conjunction with a massive increase in transit spending to get to where things are are you approach major termini in European centres. But, I will admit I don't know the details on how to get there from a transit perspective. I imagine you would need fast, timely trains and accurate timed connections across other modes of transit.

Sorry to bring this up again, but I know in Switzerland all the forms of transit; from trains, to buses, to boats, to funiculars and trams, are timed to each other. So you can book everything in one place (SBB) and your journey will be timed out for efficiency. They get upset when a train is a minute late, because it could have down journey impact. Why can't we have nice plans like this? Anyway, I am sure I have gone OT too much.

Keep in mind almost every single go bus is full of people from OUTSIDE Toronto! Feels silly to expect the city to slow down the already slow highway for people who don't even live here

 

[Dan416]

I love hearing people dream of demolishing the Gardiner with zero concept of a plan of what to do with the Milton buses, and no care for it either.

You want people to take transit? Great. So build it! But you don't take away people's options BEFORE building it!

 

[drum118]

I love hearing people dream of demolishing the Gardiner with zero concept of a plan of what to do with the Milton buses, and no care for it either.

You want people to take transit? Great. So build it! But you don't take away people's options BEFORE building it!

At this time there is no way that the western section of the Gardiner can be remove even with GO running trains every 3-5 minutes at 14-16 cars long. Even Waterfront Toronto has said this for decades..

The easten section can be remove even though drivers will have to spend an extra 5 minutes on the surface of Lake Shore and something Waterfront has been trying to do since 2002 when I got involved withg WT.

The Milton Line is long over due for all day service like somw of the other lines. All lines needs to be 7/24 even if cost billions to do it as traffic is not going anywhere period. Keeping the Gardiner in good shape will be costly to do and will cause backup and slow driving when work has to take place to keep it standing.

 

[turbanplanner]

At this time there is no way that the western section of the Gardiner can be remove even with GO running trains every 3-5 minutes at 14-16 cars long. Even Waterfront Toronto has said this for decades..

The easten section can be remove even though drivers will have to spend an extra 5 minutes on the surface of Lake Shore and something Waterfront has been trying to do since 2002 when I got involved withg WT.

The Milton Line is long over due for all day service like somw of the other lines. All lines needs to be 7/24 even if cost billions to do it as traffic is not going anywhere period. Keeping the Gardiner in good shape will be costly to do and will cause backup and slow driving when work has to take place to keep it standing.

I don’t belive it would be 5 mins extra. Remember how long the turn lane lineup was to carlaw when the eastern ramps existed?

 

[drum118]

I don’t belive it would be 5 mins extra. Remember how long the turn lane lineup was to carlaw when the eastern ramps existed?

Regardless if its 5-15 minutes, it only service about 30,000 vehicles a day,. Tt needs to come dowm just like the eastern section and what other cities are doing for higher numbers. It better use of existing land and opens the road to the sky as well reduce the yearly upkeep. Only have to look at Harbour St to see the change. Why should 30,000 useing get premium service while the rest get peanuts service???

You are only encouraging more people to use the car than transit regardless transit sucks because of traffic and lack of funds.

 

[UrbanAffair]

I love hearing people dream of demolishing the Gardiner with zero concept of a plan of what to do with the Milton buses, and no care for it either.

You want people to take transit? Great. So build it! But you don't take away people's options BEFORE building it!

My idea was more to bury it, but, there are countless examples of this "radical" perspective working in other cities outside the North American context. I agree we would need far more transit moving far faster and far more frequently to make it work without our downtown highway coming all the way in to the city.

 

[turbanplanner]

Regardless if its 5-15 minutes, it only service about 30,000 vehicles a day,. Tt needs to come dowm just like the eastern section and what other cities are doing for higher numbers. It better use of existing land and opens the road to the sky as well reduce the yearly upkeep. Only have to look at Harbour St to see the change. Why should 30,000 useing get premium service while the rest get peanuts service???

You are only encouraging more people to use the car than transit regardless transit sucks because of traffic and lack of funds.

I'm not trying to argue for or against it, just that if the city gives numbers that aren't true it's going to ruin any credibility they have.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

I'm not trying to argue for or against it, just that if the city gives numbers that aren't true it's going to ruin any credibility they have.

Pretty sure the city never claimed a time delay, that’s just a ballpark figure from drum. However, the count of vehicles is a measured, averaged value.