kaptrice
New Member
Isn't it the case that opening day will jump straight to service level 6 anyway? That's what I remember, at least.
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Kyle Campbell
Senior Member
Thanks, the way Ottawa has done it has been to do a major rework of the entire bus network each time across the city, but the delay been the line opening and the route changes has been months. They did minor adjustments on opening to existing routes.
REM in Montreal is forcing similar changes, as it has non compete rules, basically forcing you to take REM if there was a competing alternative route
There's also an element of what I would call fear and hesitation in pulling the trigger.
Toronto's changes to the bus network seem much more localized, but I imagine the crosstown will make a huge shift in travel patterns, so wasn't sure if there was a grander bus network plan.
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smallspy
Senior Member
I can't recall precisely which one was to be operated on day 1, but it is well above what were contracted to be the initial stages of operation, yes.
Dan
6ixGod
Active Member
Does anyone else feel like when Line 5 opens it’s going to be plagued with overcrowding? Maybe I’m wrong on this one, but with all the condo development and growth that has occurred since this was FIRST announced, it certainly looks that way to me.
EllaW
New Member
At least on the aboveground part of the line, none of the many proposed condos have opened or even broken ground yet
christiesplits
Senior Member
Not on opening day, but based on the plans for development on the Golden Mile, it could be a concern in the not so distant future.
PL1
Senior Member
Hopefully by the time many of the eastern developments are complete, the Ontario line will be open to act as a syphon
nfitz
Superstar
No.
The passenger projections were based on exactly the kind of growth we are seeing. And even in the 2030s were less than 6,000 per hour per direction (if I remember correctly at Cedarvale - but similar at Eglinton-Yonge). That can be accomplished with 12 trains an hour - once every 5 minutes (300 seconds). Even with the current rolling stock, Metrolinx wants to run them every 190 seconds. That alone gives a capacity of 9,300 per hour per direction.
And the initial trains are only going to be 2-cars - and it's built for 3-cars. So worst-come-to-worst (best-come-to-best!) they buy more cars, and that increases capacity by another 50% - to give almost 14,000 per hour per direction. Far more than the estimated demand.
And then that's still based on 3'10" frequencies. What's the minimum frequency they can achieve with the current layout and signalling. 2'30" (anyone? I'm not sure)? That's 17,640 an hour.
There zero issue of overcrowding, if they choose to run service frequently enough.
We've discussed this several times previously, earlier in this thread.
bearcat
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I am just hoping the eastern section that's on street will with traffic signals will not be an impediment to running more frequent trains. As that's the section that runs through Golden Mile.
I am legitimately worried about how well that section will work. I don't thinks there is really any other line in the GTA that transitions from a fully grade separated section that is essentially a metro to an on street one.
I live near Spadina and never take the Spadina streetcar as the Spadina streetcar is soooooo slow with bunching, and I am really hoping the Eglinton Crosstown LRT will be better.
I am sure this topic has been beaten to death in this thread. I think we just have to wait and see how everything works in practice.
TOtramz
Active Member
Are there currently enough trains to run 3 car trains? I wonder if there would be difficulties buying more flexity trains given that Bombardier is no more and the previous issues with delivering the Flexity vehicles.
bearcat
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They can probably make 2 3 car trains from 3 2 car trains and then buy different rolling stock that's 3 cars long.
nfitz
Superstar
At what frequency? I don't believe there is at Metrolinx's desired 190 seconds. But if TTC has gotten their way, at 300 seconds - then yes there is. And that would be about 8,800 an hour.
This is really the least of their concerns. And if demand is unexpectedly that high, then this will be a great success. There's only 76 cars now, and presumably there'll be an extra order for the Phase 2 extension to Renforth station, and Phase 3 to Pearson. Easy to tack on some more.
It's still not clear to me what the travel times are, so I don't know how many cars they currently need.
drum118
Superstar
If and when the overcrowding happens, riders will have a choice of either going to Kennedy or the Science Centre for the area between Don Mills and Kennedy. Riders can catch the GO train at Kennedy or the OL at the Science Centre unless they have to use the Yonge Line in either direction. West of Yonge will see less ridership than the east.
The 3rd car will not be added for sometime until headway is down to 2-3 minutes. On opening day, 2 cars are needed at 5 minute headway and will be overcrowded because people will want to ride the line on opening day with visitors all places from outside Toronto.
As for traffic lights based on what I have seen the past few year for the surface section will be an issue at this time until we see true running schedule testing.
As for enough 3 car trains, ML has enough at this time and may see a few for special events and maybe at peak time in service. If they need more, it will take 2 years to get them once the forecast for them is seen well in advance on less they move to 50 meter cars since the existing fleet nearing the end of their life cycle. How many years have they been here so far with very low millage on them so far??
nfitz
Superstar
We've had naysayers arguing that issue here for 15 years now. Weeks away from trial operations, perhaps it's time to just wait and see. There's been less concerns expressed here since they started running the trains on the surface section back in 2021.
Alstom is currently in the middle of delivering the order for 60 additional similar Flexitys for TTC. Alstom still has the expertise and tooling to build these cars.
I don't believe that's what the models showed for the 2030s scenario. Though both are far higher than the abysmally low ridership west of Jane, where some segments in AM peak had a ridership of 0. Obviously it won't be 0, but we aren't talking thousands there.
Kyle Campbell
Senior Member
I agree the line has enough capacity, but what about the impact of this on Line 1? If it diverts some load from Line 2 I could see it either helping overcrowding at Bloor-Yonge by spreading some of the load. But it could also do the opposite.