Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[innsertnamehere]

Try $200 to Montreal. Maybe $300 by the time it opens. Though I'm just guessing wildly.

The same reason that Dorval will likely have a stop (I assume). Also has to head north through Laval to get to the track to Trois-Rivieres.

Though perhaps Montreal-Nord might make more sense.

We've never got that far down this road before.

$200-$300 would make it substantially more expensive than flying. Montreal on Porter right now is like $175.

It will likely be more than $55 though, you are right, outside of perhaps some sort of niche discount program.

$100 is probably a more reasonable expectation for Alto. It will be cheaper than flying most likely, but more expensive than the current services.

A suburban station in Toronto and Montreal (and maybe even Ottawa) makes sense for parking purposes to capture customers coming from outside of easy transit range of the downtown stations. No reason it can't be co-located with YOW / YYZ / YUL though.

 

[Ward8]

Fare needs to be priced competitively. Toronto to Peterborough for $25, to Ottawa for $45, to Montreal for $60. Discounts for children/students/seniors. So even families/groups are incentivised to ditch their car.

This is probably too ambitious, but the point still stands. Fares need to be competitive. They should also be flat. Dynamic pricing is awful for rail travel and an impediment to improving service. Part of the goal should be to induce demand and stimulate the economies of our biggest cities.

Paul. I don’t mean to be combative. I just can’t see this getting votes and I’m confused about the need. When I take rail the most frustrating thing is sharing the line with the freight trains. This is the problem far more than the speed because it slows down the train and they can never accurately say when you will get there.

The speed would move the needle for me dramatically. I have family in Montreal and would go much more often if the trip was 3 hrs. A ~6-7 hour train is extremely difficult with a child, as is flying and driving. I'd probably increase trips from 1 per year to 4 or 5.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Lots of long distance toll roads - I-90 in New York being one nearby example. If I had a map handy…..

- Paul

I90 tolls are like $0.03 a km though. It costs $15 to drive from Buffalo to MA - a distance of over 500km. A total toll for Toronto-Montreal for the entire 401 of $15 would not be wildly unpopular, but also would not exactly be a big revenue generator and would not be worth the political capital required to implement it.

The Thruway toll system is designed specifically to self-fund road maintenance of the thruway system and nothing more - which is why the tolls are so low.

 

[Northern Light]

On Price, Paris to Lyon is a ~460km route, and the average fare is ~$60 CAD

Obviously prices will vary here based on local market conditions and the competitive landscape at the time.

Today's VIA cost (Toronto to Ottawa), if I bought tomorrow is from $98 one-way, and picking the first available trip, tomorrow and then the next day in economy gets me a round trip all-in of $238

That, is frankly excessive for the travel time.

The lowest one-way fare I can find looking ahead is $55. The lowest round trip I can put together is $124 after tax/fees.

 

[nfitz]

On Price, Paris to Lyon is a ~460km route, and the average fare is ~$60 CAD

Isn't Paris to Lyon subsidized through? They are saying that Alto should at least break even.

What's a 460-km non-HST route in the UK if you book the same week?

That's about London to Carlisle. About CA$182 for the 3:40-hour trip in two days on Friday. And $380 in first class (mostly sold out). A single midnight departure on the 9-hour trip is only CA$138.

I'll still go with Ottawa at $200 in 2025 dollars.

 

[Mihairokov]

Isn't Paris to Lyon subsidized through? They are saying that Alto should at least break even.

What's a 460-km non-HST route in the UK if you book the same week?

 

[Ward8]

On Price, Paris to Lyon is a ~460km route, and the average fare is ~$60 CAD

The Shinkansen (Tokyo to Osaka) is $100-150 i think. Probably a good target given the flight price from toronto to montreal.

 

[nfitz]

View attachment 631901

Well yeah, if you choose a train that arrives at 2 AM, and is a full week away, you might get cheaper - but that's 75 quid is still $134!

If you book months in advance (or weeks off-season) you can get some decent fares less than $100 on a better-time train. But I expect that will be true here (heck, it already is, these days)

 

[MrGoose]

https://altotrain.ca/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/HFR.png

This image on their site still says HFR in the url lol

 

[Mihairokov]

This image on their site still says HFR in the url lol

The PDF linked in an earlier thread had a February date within the PDF listed as "February XX, 2025"...

 

[innsertnamehere]

Lots of errors and clearly not enough quality control.. this as well:

1. it says December 2024, not February 2025.
2. It says "[consortium]", not "Cadance"
3. the "learn more" text is not a link as intended, and is plaintext.

I suspect the announcement was originally scheduled for December before the whole federal government meltdown. It got delayed and put back, then likely suddenly rushed for whatever reason for an announcement today which led to normal quality checks being skipped.

 

[Mihairokov]

Lots of errors and clearly not enough quality control.. this as well:

Have we checked to see if the French versions are up-to-date?

 

[NoahB]

Business case summery document

https://altotrain.ca/en/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Fast-Forward-Shaping-Canada-s-Future-with-a-High-Speed-Train-EN.pdf

 

[sixrings]

On Price, Paris to Lyon is a ~460km route, and the average fare is ~$60 CAD

Obviously prices will vary here based on local market conditions and the competitive landscape at the time.

Today's VIA cost (Toronto to Ottawa), if I bought tomorrow is from $98 one-way, and picking the first available trip, tomorrow and then the next day in economy gets me a round trip all-in of $238

That, is frankly excessive for the travel time.

The lowest one-way fare I can find looking ahead is $55. The lowest round trip I can put together is $124 after tax/fees.

Well Sunday they are essentially sold out to Ottawa. so look at via. Despite the travel times winning.

Also I think we need to compare the cost of the train versus not just the car but the bus. I’m currently on a bus back to Toronto from Ottawa for $50. The train was$100. But it never left the station because apparently there was a derailment. The bus is full of originally via travellers. I much prefer the train.

 

[crs1026]

Here's one last bit of data. Distribution of Canada's 343 parliamentary ridings by province per the Elections Canada web site

Alberta - 37
Saskatchewan - 14
Manitoba - 14

Ontario - 122
Quebec - 78

So - by refusing to make an investment in VIA in the Corridor

How many new ridings would a "don't give Central Canada Nice Things" candidate gain, which they don't already have in their pocket?

How many would they not get, that they might need to accumulate 172 seats and win a majority, if they sound hostile to Ontario and Quebec?

This is why I believe that all parties will invest in the Corridor, maybe not as HSR, but to some degree.

- Paul