Death of Clubland (aka: Is Adam Vaughan trying to kill the Club District?)

[taal]

What's the solution?

The sheer amount of clubs hasn't really changed significantly over the past while ... in other words the demand is there.

We could attempt to spread it out some more but I think having a large concentration downtown is important ... maybe not as much as we have now but we need to give them alternatives.

The docks area might be a good interim choice but we'll eventually see the exact same problems that were seeing in the current club district when increased residential pressure comes to that area.

In your opinion what's the current problem? Lack of enforcement and bad management? Or the sheer number of clubs makes it impossible to create safety.

Don't get me wrong I agree with your comment that night life is a lot more then just clubbing ... a lot of that exists further south with restaurants and theaters so I'm not sure how much of that we can expect in this area. Moreover you have to admit that particularly in the later hours clubs are a really big part of night life ... past 12am that is.

 

[Hydrogen]

Actually, the overall number of clubs has dropped over the past few years. And like those allowed west of Spadina, many new venues now have more stringent size restrictions. Whether these regulations are actually enforced properly is a different matter.

As for demand dictating location, quite the opposite is true. Location was dictated, and typically, this was a result of short-term expediency (keeping clubs out of other areas). But the location in question was never intended to be an exclusive club zone. Planning documents have always indicated residential development and diversification of businesses and services for the general King-Spadina (Entertainment District) area, and that is happening and will continue to happen because the location is perfect for such development.

In your opinion what's the current problem? Lack of enforcement and bad management? Or the sheer number of clubs makes it impossible to create safety.

In my opinion, all of the above. According to city by-laws, club management and owners have responsibilities not only concerning the conduct within their establishments, but management responsibilities that extend beyond their front doors. Too many venues do not carry out these responsibilities particularly well. Some will continue with business as usual only until they are forced to do otherwise.

As for the city and enforcement, many residents who have had issues with clubs or club patrons have found that enforcement is slow-moving - to say the least. The city actually has relatively stringent by-laws, but getting them enforced can be a slow-moving process. I know of some people who have an on-going noise issue that is coming from a particular club (they can hear the interior club sound system in their home - windows closed. There are existing by-laws against this). The issue has been dragging on for nearly two years: the city won't investigate, the club won't change anything, and the residents in question have taken on completely anti-club attitude because of the situation. For them, only the squeaky wheel will get the grease, and the attitude is now all or nothing. It has created a poison atmosphere.

As for club patrons, even if it is a small number of people who create most of the problems, what you have is a very large concentration of such people gathering in one general area. These people are the ones who create problems not only for residents, but for those who just want to have fun and not bother anyone else. In the end, responsible people get screwed by the asses who drink too much and behave like idiots.

This over-concentration won't last. Residential development and new businesses moving in will change the area. That being said, I think there will continue to be clubs here. If the city and the club owners carry out their responsibilities properly and work to reduce problem incidents, those responsible establishments will fit right in the neighbourhood. If such a relationship is successful and functions to reduce the problems that plague the area, then you might actually see other small concentrations of clubs showing up in other parts of the city. The effect of distributing this activity will probably reduce many of the particular problems now associated with nightclubs in the Entertainment District, and will offer more potential choice of destinations to those wishing to go for a night out.

 

[smuncky]

LETTER TO THE EDITOR
TheStar.com | Opinion | Unwise to declare war on clubland

Unwise to declare war on clubland

Nov 07, 2008 04:30 AM
Re:In clubland, business as usual

for drugs, Nov. 2

In recent weeks there has been a renewed front in the war on clubland by both politicians and newspapers, including the Star. While I do admit that there are problems in the clubbing district, I believe that the "dangers" are being exaggerated, and that the solutions being recommended are misguided.

If you ask anyone who regularly attends nightclubs in this district, they will tell you that the main problem is having such an early last call. When 2 a.m. arrives, no one is really quite ready to go home yet, so many buy several drinks right before last call, and end up drinking them before the club closes at 3 a.m. Then, everyone from all the licensed venues pour out on to the street. Chaos obviously ensues when you have so many highly intoxicated people pouring out on to the street in such a short period of time.

Last year, I lived in a European city with a clubbing district comparable to Toronto's that I attended regularly. The only difference between that city and Toronto is that there was no last call. So there was no chaos in the street on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

Shutting down clubs will only satisfy a small group of people: certain residents and business in the district (although one wonders why someone would move into the clubbing district if they don't like living around clubs), and the finger-wagging idealists who believe that having a drink on a Friday or Saturday night is a vice that should be under strict control.

If this war against clubs is successful, it will diminish Toronto's entertainment offerings, which will have a variety of negative effects. Not only will it impact our already struggling tourism industry, but it will make Toronto less attractive for people considering moving here. It could also drive people out of the city who currently live here. If city councillor Adam Vaughan does to Toronto's nightclub scene what Rudolph Giuliani did to New York City's years ago, I will be moving away from Toronto.

A successful war on nightclubs will also drive nightclubs underground, and we'll end up back where we were in the 1990s, with people partying in underground parking lots with no running water. For the safety of those attending, we need to keep nightclubs in venues that are required to adhere to safety regulations.

Nightclubs are not going to go away. Let's be realistic with how we solve the current "problems" with clubland.

Graham Giles, Toronto


http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/532296

 

[BobBob]

and the finger-wagging idealists who believe that having a drink on a Friday or Saturday night is a vice that should be under strict control

Nice try, but people have drinks all over the city, on all nights of the week, without encountering opposition. Having a drink is not the problem. The problem is having 10, followed by projectile vomiting and fighting.

 

[syn]

LETTER TO THE EDITOR
TheStar.com | Opinion | Unwise to declare war on clubland

Unwise to declare war on clubland

Nov 07, 2008 04:30 AM
Re:In clubland, business as usual

for drugs, Nov. 2

In recent weeks there has been a renewed front in the war on clubland by both politicians and newspapers, including the Star. While I do admit that there are problems in the clubbing district, I believe that the "dangers" are being exaggerated, and that the solutions being recommended are misguided.

If you ask anyone who regularly attends nightclubs in this district, they will tell you that the main problem is having such an early last call. When 2 a.m. arrives, no one is really quite ready to go home yet, so many buy several drinks right before last call, and end up drinking them before the club closes at 3 a.m. Then, everyone from all the licensed venues pour out on to the street. Chaos obviously ensues when you have so many highly intoxicated people pouring out on to the street in such a short period of time.

Last year, I lived in a European city with a clubbing district comparable to Toronto's that I attended regularly. The only difference between that city and Toronto is that there was no last call. So there was no chaos in the street on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

Shutting down clubs will only satisfy a small group of people: certain residents and business in the district (although one wonders why someone would move into the clubbing district if they don't like living around clubs), and the finger-wagging idealists who believe that having a drink on a Friday or Saturday night is a vice that should be under strict control.

If this war against clubs is successful, it will diminish Toronto's entertainment offerings, which will have a variety of negative effects. Not only will it impact our already struggling tourism industry, but it will make Toronto less attractive for people considering moving here. It could also drive people out of the city who currently live here. If city councillor Adam Vaughan does to Toronto's nightclub scene what Rudolph Giuliani did to New York City's years ago, I will be moving away from Toronto.

A successful war on nightclubs will also drive nightclubs underground, and we'll end up back where we were in the 1990s, with people partying in underground parking lots with no running water. For the safety of those attending, we need to keep nightclubs in venues that are required to adhere to safety regulations.

Nightclubs are not going to go away. Let's be realistic with how we solve the current "problems" with clubland.

Graham Giles, Toronto


http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/532296

Good letter. I think a later last call would definitely help.

 

[syn]

Nice try, but people have drinks all over the city, on all nights of the week, without encountering opposition. Having a drink is not the problem. The problem is having 10, followed by projectile vomiting and fighting.

The club goers who vomit and fight represent a minuscule percentage of the people who actually go to these clubs. Vaughns crusade against clubs based on these ridiculous stereotypes is just sad.

 

[SpadinaBus]

I am still having a tough time understanding why those on the pro-club side think that they are the majority and Mr. Vaughan has somehow gone "rogue" with the commununity. There are way more residents and business owners in this ward on his side of the issue compared to the club owners or patrons, either coming from the ward or in most cases, primarily outside the community itself.

 

[syn]

I am still having a tough time understanding why those on the pro-club side think that they are the majority and Mr. Vaughan has somehow gone "rogue" with the commununity. There are way more residents and business owners in this ward on his side of the issue compared to the club owners or patrons, either coming from the ward or in most cases, primarily outside the community itself.

I'm not really sure how many in the community are pro-club or not. Personally, I'm not pro-club or anti-club. I simply think that Vaughn's crusade against them is completely irrational. He routinely makes generalizations about people who attend clubs and the nature of clubs. I'm all for a balanced and varied district - but that can include clubs too. Vaughn doesn't want to address the issues; he simply wants to shut them down because they don't correspond to his personal entertainment preferences. He doesn't like them, so they simply shouldn't be there.

 

[Hydrogen]

The club goers who vomit and fight represent a minuscule percentage of the people who actually go to these clubs.

The trouble is that with a high concentration of clubs, this "miniscule" percentage grows into a significant number. There is also a degree of "crowd psychology" that can take place; the irresponsible actions a few can encourage others to do the same.


From the posted letter:

Shutting down clubs will only satisfy a small group of people: certain residents and business in the district (although one wonders why someone would move into the clubbing district if they don't like living around clubs), and the finger-wagging idealists who believe that having a drink on a Friday or Saturday night is a vice that should be under strict control.

The writer (who does not indicate whether he lives in the area) simply brushes off the residents and businesses that have had bad experiences with the negative aspects found in the area, and appears to indicate that these resident and businesses maybe they should move away. To where, he won't say. Also, he makes an error in suggesting that this is a "clubbing district." The "Entertainment" (and across Spadina it is the "Fashion") Districts are in no way, nor have they ever been, restricted to only nightclubs. This oft repeated assumption illustrates ignorance that the area is multi-use and has always included residence and residential development. This fact has to be respected.

The problems in the area are not restricted to closing time alone.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Let's face it, who hasn't projectile-vomited at one time or another? I know I have - but it's something you grow out of, and I'm not going to cast stones at clubland, or even fart in their general direction, if some twentysomethings from 905-land are projectile-vomiting nowadays. The club district is a distinctive part of what we are at this point in our history, and eventually it will be gone. But the legend of it will live on, myths embellished in the telling by ancient former-clubbers 50 years hence. "What did you do in clubland, grandad?" the little tykes will ask ... and the tall tales will begin.

 

[Hydrogen]

"Grandad, did you ever projectile vomit in clubland?"

"Why yes sonny. Those were the days. We heaved where ever we could back then; streets, laneways, in doorways, onto cars, inside cabs - you name it. The best of us would even take aim at the sleeping pigeons, or shoot for the change-filled coffee cups of the local panhandler. I met your granma in clubland. She'd barfed all over herself outside Devil's Martini. That was a popular place for the young girls to hurl. But she was such a cool bitch, I just had to have her. Ah, the sweet syrup of ipecac, I miss those times"

 

[BobBob]

I'm thinking about putting together a photo collection of vom-puddles, saving for posterity some evidence of dinners enjoyed and good times had. There are hundreds to be beheld and enjoyed on area sidewalks every Friday/Saturday/Sunday morning.

 

[syn]

Let's face it, who hasn't projectile-vomited at one time or another? I know I have - but it's something you grow out of, and I'm not going to cast stones at clubland, or even fart in their general direction, if some twentysomethings from 905-land are projectile-vomiting nowadays. The club district is a distinctive part of what we are at this point in our history, and eventually it will be gone. But the legend of it will live on, myths embellished in the telling by ancient former-clubbers 50 years hence. "What did you do in clubland, grandad?" the little tykes will ask ... and the tall tales will begin.

A lot of people from the 416 area use these clubs too. It isn't just 905ers (even though they make up a large percentage of the patrons).

 

[Urban Shocker]

I slept right through my episode, which happened in a Chicago hotel room, and only discovered the astonishing evidence - on the headboard and the print above the bed - when I awoke the next day.

I coulda died.

 

[TonyV]

... Vaughn doesn't want to address the issues; he simply wants to shut them down because they don't correspond to his personal entertainment preferences. He doesn't like them, so they simply shouldn't be there.

You are SO spot-on. I was hoping we'd be rid of this type of politician by now, but they come back like a certain nightmare I have now and then.

There is room in this town for everyone. Or, at least, I was beginning to think that.

After Vaughan pushes the clubs off of his turf the messes associated with clubbing will show up elsewhere.