The Great PC/Mac Debate (Embarrassing Revelations for Windows Vista)

[Hydrogen]

I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps you could try posting something useful.

Only when you do.

And we both know that's not coming.


Everyone should buy what they like according to their needs, and some people (syn) should spend far less time trying to muscle their opinion around when they lack knowledge about the needs or interests of others.

 

[syn]

Most people don't need an HDMI output. DVI is the typical monitor connection. It makes more sense on a laptop to use the typical connection as opposed to one that only technophiles would use.

They're actually becoming quite common. You can easily find a computer monitor with an HDMI input. The fact is, this is a great feature to have. It even allows you to easily output your content to an HDTV (ie. movies, TV shows, etc.) if you want to. It's possible to find $700 laptops at Futureshop with an HDMI output. For a company that prides itself on innovation and staying ahead of the curve, I'd expect what is quickly becoming a common feature, especially on a laptop that starts at $2700.

It does have DisplayPort, which will probably become standard on all monitors, but that isn't really an HDMI compatible interface (they serve different purposes).

A 15" LCD (not LED) that goes to 1440x900 is pretty typical admittedly. They could have went one step up to the 1680 x 1050. But this probably would have increased the price point quite alot.

As a designer, that's a very big disappointment. At this point, 1440 x 900 is average at best. You can find a lot of 15.4" displays with 1680 x 1050 resolution. Considering the price you're paying for a Macbook Pro, I'd expect it.

The decision to remove the matte finishing option for their screens is very puzzling too.

I do generally like where they're going with LED monitor technology though.

Two USB ports on a notebook is fine. When your going out and about with it normally people would use say an external mouse and a memory stick. Other wise you can just use a USB hub. Which are quite compact if you really need one travelling.

Again, it's quite common to find 3 or 4 USB ports on even a sub - $1000 15.4" laptop. I could get a USB hub...but why would I want to if I don't have to? It just seems like a very odd oversight.

On the plus side it still has a Firewire port; I don't know why they lowered the speed though.

However there are a lot of bonuses to buying a Macbook pro compared to these so-called negatives. The only real negative was the screen size but you can go 17" if that's a deal breaker for you.

On the positive you have:
2 or 4 gig DDR3 memory
VIDIA GeForce 9600M and a NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor (yes two graphics cards)
High bus speed on all components(memory,processor,graphics)
6mb l2 cache on the 2.54ghz model

plus the new OSX has native multiprocessor support. This means your applications don't have to manage the processors and the OS does it for you.

Are these really positives? It's what you'd expect at the bare minimum. 2 or 4 gigs of RAM have been standard for quite a while now. You can find a high speed bus on pretty much all new Centrino 2 systems (and a lot of them are quite a bit cheaper too). The processor is becoming pretty standard at this point.

Don't get me wrong, the new Nvidia chipset is nice, but the bus speed is not something I'd exactly call a bonus since it's standard in Centrino 2 systems too.

The new videocard setup is interesting though unfortuantely you can't use them in tandem in an SLI setup (which is also pretty easy to find these days). It seems like a good move (though I heard you have to manually select which card you want to use - not sure if this is true). The integrated 9400M is a huge step over the integrated crap Intel has in their chipsets, that's for sure. Overall it's a nice touch as far as power consumption is concerned.

I run Vista on two machines at home ( one desktop and one laptop) and OSX at work (dual quad core baby! ) and find both perform well. I use photoshop, flash, word, email, Dreamweaver, firefox, itunes or winamp, ftp all at the same time with no problems on either system.

In a laptop purchase I would consider the Mac as it's usually much more compact than those its comparable to.

The size is a big plus for the Mac laptops. They're usually compact and really light too.

Keep in mind, when I say the new update is disappointing, I'm comparing it to the rest of the market and factoring it's price. For nearly $3000 it's missing a lot of features that have been standard in other laptops for quite a while now.

With this new update I was expecting support for Blu Ray and features you can find on pretty many other laptops - a media card reader, 3-4 USB ports, 1680x1050 resolution, etc. I also expected some new advancements that are supported on machines from other companies like Lenovo, such as support for quad core mobile processors.

 

[syn]

Only when you do.

And we both know that's not coming.

I posted exactly why I think it's a disappointing upgrade. All you've done is whine.

If you don't understand what I posted, that's fine. But then you should probably stop posting on the topic if you don't know what you're talking about.

Everyone should buy what they like according to their needs, and some people (syn) should spend far less time trying to muscle their opinion around when they lack knowledge about the needs or interests of others.

I see. So I guess it's wrong to analyze or critique any product, since virtually every product will fulfill the needs of someone. Brilliant reasoning.

 

[syn]

I think W.ll.am nailed it - the specs for the MacBook aren't "perfect", but from a hardware perspective at this price point, very much comparable if not beyond what PC laptops offers - I don't think there are all that many of those using LED backlight displays, DDR3, FSB at 1.066 GHz, Nvidia 9400M, the new multi-touch pad, etc. It uses Mini DisplayPort instead of HDMI - both of which are not that useful, vs. DVI/VGA (which it doesn't have). Those features, combined with OS/X iLife bundle tilts the scale in its' favour.

As to Bluray - even if it has one, it's going to be BD-ROM anyways, which is IMO not worth the money on a laptop.

AoD

You can find a lot of systems at this point with the same bus speeds. It's pretty much standard on the Centrino 2 platform. There are also quite a few laptops with BD ROM drives at reasonable prices (and ones with BD RWs at pretty reasonable prices too).

Personally, the software doesn't come remotely close to tipping the scales for me. If you were getting more for the price then it could, but at the current price points the included software bundle just doesn't do the trick, as good as it may be.

 

[Hydrogen]

I posted exactly why I think it's a disappointing upgrade. All you've done is whine.

If you don't understand what I posted, that's fine. But then you should probably stop posting on the topic if you don't know what you're talking about.

I see. So I guess it's wrong to analyze or critique any product, since virtually every product will fulfill the needs of someone. Brilliant reasoning.

Touchy, touchy!

Actually you've whined incessantly about Mac products and have presumed that your opinion is objective fact. Also, the fact that you've suggested that I stop posting on the topic indicates that you are deeply threatened by opposing points of view. It's all a rather sad defence of a weak position.

You can critique all you want - and so can anyone else. Just don't think that this makes your opinion immune to criticism.

 

[syn]

Touchy, touchy!

lol

Pretty hilarious considering the source.

Actually you've whined incessantly about Mac products and have presumed that your opinion is objective fact.

Stating why I'm not a fan of the upgrade isn't whining.

Also, the fact that you've suggested that I stop posting on the topic indicates that you are deeply threatened by opposing points of view. It's all a rather sad defence of a weak position.

I suggested that you stop posting if you know what you're talking about. Judging by your responses, you don't. If you did you could actually address the points posted. And really, if it bothers you so much then perhaps you really shouldn't respond.

Both AoD and w.ll.am have been able to provide reasonable responses with no issues.

If my position is as weak as you claim then you'd be able to point it out pretty easily. Instead all you can do is provide your usual ad hominem arguments. Unlike AoD and w.ll.am you haven't provided a single legitimate opposing view.

You can critique all you want - and so can anyone else. Just don't think that this makes your opinion immune to criticism.

lol

What criticism? You haven't criticized any of the points I've made - you've just criticized the fact that they don't agree with your apparent unconditional love for Apple.

 

[afransen]

Hydrogen, syn has been making legitimate critiques. You have been attacking syn, not his points.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think W.ll.am nailed it - the specs for the MacBook aren't "perfect", but from a hardware perspective at this price point, very much comparable if not beyond what PC laptops offers - I don't think there are all that many of those using LED backlight displays, DDR3, FSB at 1.066 GHz, Nvidia 9400M, the new multi-touch pad, etc. It uses Mini DisplayPort instead of HDMI - both of which are not that useful, vs. DVI/VGA (which it doesn't have). Those features, combined with OS/X iLife bundle tilts the scale in its' favour.

As to Bluray - even if it has one, it's going to be BD-ROM anyways, which is IMO not worth the money on a laptop.

AoD

+1

Syn, you are ignoring these features. Sure many of those features are available on many laptops. But how many laptops come with ALL of those features at that price point. For 1400 bucks, those are fairly decent features. Heck, I still find laptops without built in netcams. iLife too is worth a fair bit. Windows Movie Maker hardly compares. And I actually find the $79 iWorks bundle to be far more capable than MS Office priced at twice that amount.

What I am disappointed on was the decision to leave out the keyboard lighting at that price point. Having to pay an extra 300 bucks to get 0.4 GHz faster processor and 90 GB more hard drive space just to be able to get keyboard back lighting is rather unfair.

Anyway, I could not find anything comparable to my iMac when I purchased that last year. And my brother could not find any laptop at the same performance/price point as his macbook pro when he purchased that in late 2006. And he really looked. If you price out other OEMs to the same features and performance as a Mac, the Apple usually wins.

Lastly, student pricing has worked well for Apple. Few people actually pay full price for their Apples. This says it all:

http://www.macdailynews.com/gfx/article_gfx/071002_missouri_macs.jpg

 

[Hydrogen]

You haven't criticized any of the points I've made - you've just criticized the fact that they don't agree with your apparent unconditional love for Apple.

Because I could not care less about your critiques or self-assumed special status in making them. You are full of them on this topic. You find it a disappointing upgrade. Bully for you. That's your opinion, and not much else.

Hydrogen, syn has been making legitimate critiques. You have been attacking syn, not his points.

afransen, how about this: I don't find the critiques "legitimate." They are just opinions. Unless you have some objective measure at hand over what constitutes "legitimacy," these "critiques" are just opinions. Apple sells many computers and has satisfied customers. That rankles those like syn who clearly suffers from some deep-seated hate for a manufacturer. It's actually hilarious that someone could get so adamant about it.

 

[afransen]

Isn't that just your opinion Hydrogen? Even if it is just an opinion, I'd argue that you're not doing any favours for decorum around here by attacking him personally. I don't think it's warranted over something as trivial as pet computer manufacturers.

That said, Apple has been and likely always will be a bit of a boutique computer manufacturer. Their proponents are free to prefer the product, but the condescending pretentiousness of Mac in general (as evidenced by their marketing campaign) certainly rubs people the wrong way.

 

[syn]

Because I could not care less about your critiques

Then why are you taking it so personally? It's pretty obvious you do care.

or self-assumed special status in making them.

Get a grip. We're trying to have a discussion on computers. You're the one taking offense.

You are full of them on this topic.

Excuse me...I didn't realize this discussion board didn't allow open discussion related to your favourite computer maker.

You find it a disappointing upgrade. Bully for you.

Yes, it's my factually supported opinion. Why does this offend you so much? Get over it. It's a pretty silly thing to be upset over.

I find it odd that you're getting so wound up by my opinion, yet have no problem making personal attacks against me, or should I say, providing us with your "opinion"...which happens to be completely off topic.

That's your opinion, and not much else.

A factually supported opinion.

The reasons I posted for why I find the upgrade to be disappointing are facts.

For example, that the screen resolution is only 1440 x 900 isn't my opinion. It's a fact. That you can find many 15.4" laptops with higher resolution isn't my opinion. It's a fact.

afransen, how about this: I don't find the critiques "legitimate." They are just opinions. Unless you have some objective measure at hand over what constitutes "legitimacy," these "critiques" are just opinions.

Then you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. The objective measure is the current marketplace and standard laptop features. I've made it pretty clear what my analysis was based on. Pretty much everyone gets it, except for you.

Apple sells many computers and has satisfied customers.

Britney Spears sells many CDs and has many satisfied customers. I guess that makes her the best musician ever?

Microsoft has the most dominant OS in the world. I guess that means it's the best...right?

The number of computers Apple sells really has little bearing on whether or not this is a good upgrade.

That rankles those like syn who clearly suffers from some deep-seated hate for a manufacturer. It's actually hilarious that someone could get so adamant about it.

lol

Have you read your posts? The only one getting upset here is you.

 

[syn]

+1

Syn, you are ignoring these features. Sure many of those features are available on many laptops. But how many laptops come with ALL of those features at that price point. For 1400 bucks, those are fairly decent features. Heck, I still find laptops without built in netcams. iLife too is worth a fair bit. Windows Movie Maker hardly compares. And I actually find the $79 iWorks bundle to be far more capable than MS Office priced at twice that amount.

I'm not ignoring these features at all. The fact is they're pretty common with the new generation of Centrino 2 laptops. Actually, I'd say they're the norm (though DDR3 isn't common yet).

As for the price point, you can find a lot of comparable laptops that are a lot cheaper. For example:

The Asus G50V-A1 is a 15.4" laptop with (among other things) a 1680x1050 screen resolution, 4GB of RAM (DDR2), a Nvidia 9700M GT videocard, a 2 MP webcam (which is pretty standard in most laptops these days), two hard drives (250 GB, 5400 RPM each) a Intel Core 2 Duo 2.5 GHz with 6 MB of L2 Cache, an 8-in-1 media card reader, 4 USB ports and and HDMI output and the best warranty in the business. It doesn't quite match up to the new Macbook Pro in some areas and exceeds it in others...but it's exactly $1000 less.

A new 16.4" Sony FW, configured on sonystyle.ca, comes with the same processor as the new Macbook Pro, 4 GB of RAM, a 1600 x 900 screen resolution, a Blu Ray drive, an ATI Mobility Radeon 3470 graphics card, 3 USB ports, a webcam, a media card reader, a 320 GB hard drive, Firewire and HDMI output for $700 less than the Macbook Pro. Add $150 and you can get it with a Blu Ray burner. Keep in mind, this is just one configuration; you can customize it and still get a good system in the $1000 range.

A configured HP Pavillion dv7t came at about $250 more than the 15.4" Macbook Pro - except it's 17", has a fingerprint reader, 8 GB of RAM, Firewire and Ethernet ports, a TV Tuner, 320 GB of HD space, the same processor, the same video card, a Blu Ray drive with Lightscribe, media card reader, webcam and fingerprint reader (among other things).

If you just install 4 GB of RAM and modify some of the other features so it's on par with the Macbook Pro 15.4", it's about $700 - $800 less.

Keep in mind all of these examples have the almost all the same things as the Macbook Pro - a 1066 MHz FSB, 4 GB of RAM, discrete graphics, etc. They are missing some features, but also have quite a few features the MBP lacks. In addition, they're a lot more customizable. Configured similiarly to the MBP, they're all considerably less.

This doesn't even cover Centrino 2 offerings from Lenovo, Acer, etc.

It also doesn't address one of the other points I was trying to make - you can find quite a few sub $1000 with useful features you still can't get on a MBP...which costs about $2000 more. At this point, I would've expected Apple to finally include them.

What I am disappointed on was the decision to leave out the keyboard lighting at that price point. Having to pay an extra 300 bucks to get 0.4 GHz faster processor and 90 GB more hard drive space just to be able to get keyboard back lighting is rather unfair.

Are you sure about that? I could swear that was a standard feature on any model.

Anyway, I could not find anything comparable to my iMac when I purchased that last year. And my brother could not find any laptop at the same performance/price point as his macbook pro when he purchased that in late 2006. And he really looked.

The Imac is also overpriced compared to it's desktop PC equivalents. You can find a lot of PCs that are a lot more powerful than an Imac for the same price.

If you price out other OEMs to the same features and performance as a Mac, the Apple usually wins.

From a hardware perspective, Apple usually doesn't win (as I tried to illustrate above).

Lastly, student pricing has worked well for Apple. Few people actually pay full price for their Apples. This says it all:

http://www.macdailynews.com/gfx/article_gfx/071002_missouri_macs.jpg

Student pricing doesn't give you much of a discount. Apple may be doing well with it, but there are many more students buying sub-$1000 Sonys, HPs, etc.

I also don't really see how it relates to this being a good upgrade for the MBP. As I said, there are some nice new features added, but it's still lacking considering the price you're paying.

 

[w.ll.am]

I think something you have neglected about this computer is that it comes with two video cards. Which to my knowledge doesn't come on any other system. This makes it ideal for anyone needing two monitors. Which is their biggest purchaser business-wise ... designers.

I noticed you said you're a designer and wonder if you've ever used dual-screens. Ever since I started using dual monitors I would never use a notebook to do work on. It's a giant pain (especially with flash). Actually developers also prefer dual monitors to code with. My point is this configuration really allows the professional to have a laptop and a workstation without taxing the notebook by splitting video resources from 1 card.

Additionally... while you can find almost comparable specs the weight difference is enormous and this is essentially what you are paying extra for. The Apple compared to the Asus lighter (by x.7 pds) and slimmer (by .6"). These are big selling points to people as well.

The Sony Video card is shared video memory which = suxxorz. In any laptop purchase if you're going to be playing games or doing graphics heavy work you do not want a shared memory video card.

HP is known to have the worst customer service of any brand name manufacturer so I would never touch any of their products. Why take the chance you're going to need help and get hosed.

It's like the Air. You and I would never buy one because it doesn't have the specs we would want. But a corporate oriented individual would be all over it. My overall thoughts on the new macBook is it does very well to target tech-savvy people who are buying with specific goals in mind. I can easily see the IT department at work here buying these for designers that also want to work from home or take the notebook to meetings.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Exactly - if you are comparing the features between those various PC laptops and MacBook Pro (which I personally think it isn't that stellar), then yeah...but I am focusing on the 13" MacBook instead.

AoD

 

[syn]

I think something you have neglected about this computer is that it comes with two video cards. Which to my knowledge doesn't come on any other system. This makes it ideal for anyone needing two monitors. Which is their biggest purchaser business-wise ... designers.

You don't need two separate video cards to use dual monitors (and it's not as though both video cards can be used at the same time anyways). I believe all the laptops I mentioned above can output to dual monitors (except maybe the Vaio). I do know that all the cards in those systems support dual monitor output.

Secondly, dual video card configurations on laptops are nothing new. Even Dell and Toshiba have released systems with two video cards (that can be run in an SLI configuration too).

And finally, with an HDMI output all the laptops I listed can output to an HDTV, which is a big plus.

I noticed you said you're a designer and wonder if you've ever used dual-screens. Ever since I started using dual monitors I would never use a notebook to do work on. It's a giant pain (especially with flash). Actually developers also prefer dual monitors to code with. My point is this configuration really allows the professional to have a laptop and a workstation without taxing the notebook by splitting video resources from 1 card.

Yes, but I wouldn't use a laptop for that - I'd use a desktop. For me, a laptop is about portability. The ability to output to dual monitors is nice, but you don't need a Macbook Pro to do it, even if you are using a laptop.

Additionally... while you can find almost comparable specs the weight difference is enormous and this is essentially what you are paying extra for. The Apple compared to the Asus lighter (by x.7 pds) and slimmer (by .6"). These are big selling points to people as well.

Weight and size are a big plus for Apple.

I realize they aren't exactly the same. But the Asus also comes with a lot more hard drive space, a better screen resolution, a better high end video card, a much better warranty (included), the little touches I mentioned that have never come with the MBP (media card reader, etc.) and it's $1000 less, which is a huge difference.

The Sony Video card is shared video memory which = suxxorz. In any laptop purchase if you're going to be playing games or doing graphics heavy work you do not want a shared memory video card.

Actually, that's not true. It's 256 MB of discrete memory.

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/se...d=1005349&navigationPath=n32009n100299n100490

HP is known to have the worst customer service of any brand name manufacturer so I would never touch any of their products. Why take the chance you're going to need help and get hosed.

Yes, their service is lacking. However, kEiThZ said there weren't any comparable systems in that price range, so I just provided some systems that comparable and actually quite a bit cheaper.

It's like the Air. You and I would never buy one because it doesn't have the specs we would want. But a corporate oriented individual would be all over it. My overall thoughts on the new macBook is it does very well to target tech-savvy people who are buying with specific goals in mind. I can easily see the IT department at work here buying these for designers that also want to work from home or take the notebook to meetings.

Keep in mind, I've been referring to the MBP the entire time. I could easily see the tech department buying them too, but then I could also seeing them buying a Lenovo ThinkPad or Ideapad for them, which are well known for their quality and features.

People will buy this Macbook Pro (or the Macbook), there's no doubt about that. Some people like the brand and software and don't mind overpaying for the hardware. But the point for me is that it's not much of an upgrade over the existing MB line. Apple prides themselves on innovation and usabillty and there are still a lot of useful features you could find on PC laptops for years that still aren't included.

As I said, it has some nice features. Resolution aside, the LED monitor is great and I would expect the build quality to be outstanding too. And of course it includes nice Apple touches like the backlit keyboard, etc. But for nearly $3000 it is still lacking in features and not much of a value.