Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[felix123]

These gaps you have listed are still enormous, and the point being made here is that there are no plans on the books to build any other subway lines in the core. If we compare to NYC, Berlin, London, Paris, Tokyo, Seoul, etc etc, we see that most of these networks don't follow a grid. You're right on that point.

On the other hand, what all of those networks do offer are rapid transit trips to nearly all sections of their cores. And because I travel extensively for work, I use these systems quite frequently and find that the toughest adjustment when I return home is how comparatively long transit trips take in TO. So again, the issue isn't that the OL won't be an improvement, it's simply that on its own it won't be enough of an improvement for the core of a city that deserves much better, faster connectivity.

 

[voilan]

Toronto is not remotely comparable to any of those cities, and neighbourhoods you consider to be part of the "core" in Toronto are more sparsely populated than neighbourhoods on the outskirts of those cities. The OL does a decent job of covering the densest unserved neighbourhoods which actually are comparable to those cities.

 

[picard102]

That still doesn't amount to much coverage of the core, and the OL stop spacing is large. Dense sections of the city, like Parkdale and Cabbagetown will remain underserved.

Parkdale and Cabbagetown aren't really in the core though are they?

 

[felix123]

Toronto is not remotely comparable to any of those cities, and neighbourhoods you consider to be part of the "core" in Toronto are more sparsely populated than neighbourhoods on the outskirts of those cities. The OL does a decent job of covering the densest unserved neighbourhoods which actually are comparable to those cities.

You are wrong. Toronto has a larger population than Berlin in a smaller area, and therefore is denser than Berlin.

 

[voilan]

You are wrong. Toronto has a larger population than Berlin in a smaller area, and therefore is denser than Berlin.

Sure, Berlin is the closest, although they're still incomparable given historical factors (also Berlin's city limits include a bunch of empty space mostly untouched by transit).

"There's still so little truly rapid transit in the core, and the Ontario line alone won't add much". Just because Toronto's density is concentrated in a few corridors, leading to a less exciting map, doesn't mean there's little rapid transit in the core. Toronto is very dense centrally, but generally in areas currently or soon-to-be served by rapid transit. Even Parkdale, your own example, will have a rapid transit stop on its eastern border at Queen and Dufferin. Anyway, a superimposed TTC + OL + Go Expansion map will be pleasant enough:

 

[felix123]

Sure, Berlin is the closest, although they're still incomparable given historical factors (also Berlin's city limits include a bunch of empty space mostly untouched by transit).

"There's still so little truly rapid transit in the core, and the Ontario line alone won't add much". Just because Toronto's density is concentrated in a few corridors, leading to a less exciting map, doesn't mean there's little rapid transit in the core. Toronto is very dense centrally, but generally in areas currently or soon-to-be served by rapid transit. Even Parkdale, your own example, will have a rapid transit stop on its eastern border at Queen and Dufferin. Anyway, a superimposed TTC + OL + Go Expansion map will be pleasant enough:

You're moving the goalposts. First Toronto isn't dense enough to compare to Berlin, then it's actually denser, but then its history is incomparible.

I'm all for a line 4 extension, but it's still going to be arduous to get to and from multiple points within the core. Ideally LV and Spadina could serve multiple lines, regardless they will still be improvements to west-end rapid transit, I agree with you there.*

*because it's possible to agree on certain points of a post, and still debate other points without writing incorrect hyperbole like "Toronto is not remotely comparable to any of those cities..."

 

[voilan]

No goalposts have moved. Your argument was that the Ontario Line does not amount to much coverage of the "core", in contrast with six other cities in which you can travel "to nearly all sections of their cores" on rapid transit. I proposed that those cities are not comparable to Toronto, and that "core" neighbourhoods you mentioned (Cabbagetown, Parkdale) are more sparsely populated than those on the outskirts of those cities. You contested that for Berlin, suggesting that the density of Toronto overall is similar to Berlin overall. This didn't really address my argument about Cabbagetown or Parkdale, although I'll admit that I should have instead said that they were more sparsely populated than any neighbourhoods in the central cities of the six you mention.

In my next post, I responded that Berlin is not comparable to Toronto for reasons other than density (no inconsistency with my original post), and also pointed out that while Berlin and Toronto may be similar in density overall, Toronto's "core"-level density is concentrated in a few corridors which are or will be covered by rapid transit. While Berlin has a relatively uniform medium-high density "core" inside the Ringbahn (where public transit coverage is really good), Old Toronto's density varies greatly.

This difference, in addition to historical factors, explains why Toronto and Berlin are not comparable: the city centre in Berlin forms an entire "core" of neighbourhoods which are well-suited to public transit due to their medium-high density (and their historical luck in having been established at the beginning of the 20th century). I believe this is also true in London and Paris (of course, NYC, Seoul, and Tokyo are on a different level). In Toronto, we have large parts of the city centre which simply would not exist in the "cores" of the cities you listed. They may feel "core" to you because they're close, but they're not dense relative to the "core" neighbourhoods in Berlin.

Point being, the Ontario Line (plus GO Expansion) will amount to much greater coverage of the "core", at least if by "core", you mean something comparable to what would be considered "core" in the cities you mentioned, something like the shape outlined below:

 

[robmausser]

No goalposts have moved. Your argument was that the Ontario Line does not amount to much coverage of the "core", in contrast with six other cities in which you can travel "to nearly all sections of their cores" on rapid transit. I proposed that those cities are not comparable to Toronto, and that "core" neighbourhoods you mentioned (Cabbagetown, Parkdale) are more sparsely populated than those on the outskirts of those cities. You contested that for Berlin, suggesting that the density of Toronto overall is similar to Berlin overall. This didn't really address my argument about Cabbagetown or Parkdale, although I'll admit that I should have instead said that they were more sparsely populated than any neighbourhoods in the central cities of the six you mention.

In my next post, I responded that Berlin is not comparable to Toronto for reasons other than density (no inconsistency with my original post), and also pointed out that while Berlin and Toronto may be similar in density overall, Toronto's "core"-level density is concentrated in a few corridors which are or will be covered by rapid transit. While Berlin has a relatively uniform medium-high density "core" inside the Ringbahn (where public transit coverage is really good), Old Toronto's density varies greatly.

This difference, in addition to historical factors, explains why Toronto and Berlin are not comparable: the city centre in Berlin forms an entire "core" of neighbourhoods which are well-suited to public transit due to their medium-high density (and their historical luck in having been established at the beginning of the 20th century). I believe this is also true in London and Paris (of course, NYC, Seoul, and Tokyo are on a different level). In Toronto, we have large parts of the city centre which simply would not exist in the "cores" of the cities you listed. They may feel "core" to you because they're close, but they're not dense relative to the "core" neighbourhoods in Berlin.

Point being, the Ontario Line (plus GO Expansion) will amount to much greater coverage of the "core", at least if by "core", you mean something comparable to what would be considered "core" in the cities you mentioned, something like the shape outlined below:

View attachment 522366

Toronto completely lacking any sense of a mid-rise/low-rise development is what contributed to this. We are a city of skyscrapers and detached housing. The dropoff in density when you leave the downtown core is shocking when you come from other cities.

 

[duty free]

No goalposts have moved. Your argument was that the Ontario Line does not amount to much coverage of the "core", in contrast with six other cities in which you can travel "to nearly all sections of their cores" on rapid transit. I proposed that those cities are not comparable to Toronto, and that "core" neighbourhoods you mentioned (Cabbagetown, Parkdale) are more sparsely populated than those on the outskirts of those cities. You contested that for Berlin, suggesting that the density of Toronto overall is similar to Berlin overall. This didn't really address my argument about Cabbagetown or Parkdale, although I'll admit that I should have instead said that they were more sparsely populated than any neighbourhoods in the central cities of the six you mention.

In my next post, I responded that Berlin is not comparable to Toronto for reasons other than density (no inconsistency with my original post), and also pointed out that while Berlin and Toronto may be similar in density overall, Toronto's "core"-level density is concentrated in a few corridors which are or will be covered by rapid transit. While Berlin has a relatively uniform medium-high density "core" inside the Ringbahn (where public transit coverage is really good), Old Toronto's density varies greatly.

This difference, in addition to historical factors, explains why Toronto and Berlin are not comparable: the city centre in Berlin forms an entire "core" of neighbourhoods which are well-suited to public transit due to their medium-high density (and their historical luck in having been established at the beginning of the 20th century). I believe this is also true in London and Paris (of course, NYC, Seoul, and Tokyo are on a different level). In Toronto, we have large parts of the city centre which simply would not exist in the "cores" of the cities you listed. They may feel "core" to you because they're close, but they're not dense relative to the "core" neighbourhoods in Berlin.

Point being, the Ontario Line (plus GO Expansion) will amount to much greater coverage of the "core", at least if by "core", you mean something comparable to what would be considered "core" in the cities you mentioned, something like the shape outlined below:

View attachment 522366

using the janky core map you've created an area roughly half the size of Berlin's ringbahn area.

which is fine, but it helps demonstrate how much rapid transit is still needed in Toronto's core, assuming you think Berlin has appropriate transit built relative to population density. even post GO expansion + OL Toronto gets nowhere near half of Berlin's core transit coverage.

if you combine every U-bahn line within the ringbahn and every S-bahn line within the ringbahn you realize that there's a total 116 km worth of rapid transit and that doesn't include the Ringbahn itself.

Toronto will have roughly 27 km of rapid transit in your core map, which is not even a 1/4 of that total amount.

now remember your core map is only half the size of Berlin's core, so post OL + GO expansion you'd still need to double it to be comparable relative to size.

also Parkdale is one of the more dense neighbourhoods in Toronto and Cabbage Town is directly adjacent to the most dense neighbourhood in Canada (St. James Town) and Regent Park which is very densely populated.

the point being the core will still be underserved by rapid transit.

 

[Sunnyside]

I feel like this can all be boiled down to acknowledging the large marginal improvement to transit access in the core with the OL, BUT even with it, Toronto will still not have similar aggregate transit access typical in city centres more broadly. Both can be true.

 

[mikey7767]

Hey guys!

Some Provincial MPPs are organizing a Sheppard Extension Town Hall. This event is not on the Metrolinx Page, but I thought I'd share the details here from the email that I got, which is similar to the info on the Twitter page of some of our MPPs as well.

I'll include the link below for those of you that are interested in signing up:

Sheppard Extension Townhall Meeting

Join us and have your say on the Sheppard Extension in Scarborough! This is a unique opportunity to share your feedback and opinion.

www.eventbrite.com

 

[toronto647]

Sheppard Subway Extension December 2023 Market Update

Still no timeline updated - Project still in planning phase

Link to Market Update https://www.infrastructureontario.c...3d975054aaa8298205/dec-2023-market-update.pdf
Link to CEO Letter on Market Update https://www.infrastructureontario.c...9463d975054aaa8298205/ceo-letter-dec-2023.pdf

 

[mikey7767]

I spoke to some of the MPPs after the session this Wednesday, and one of them suggested to include our desire for the Sheppard Extension to be funded in the 2024 Budget Consultations.

I have put the link below.

Ministry of Finance

I put it in the "Infrastructure" category personally since I believe this falls under that rather than "Public Transportation". I want to ensure that this gets the attention of the Infrastructure Ontario.

I would Highly Encourage you guys to fill out the above form for the 2024 Budget Consultations and to include the desire to have a Sheppard Subway and to have funding included for it in the 2024 Budget.

 

[Sierra]

I spoke to some of the MPPs after the session this Wednesday, and one of them suggested to include our desire for the Sheppard Extension to be funded in the 2024 Budget Consultations.

I have put the link below.

Ministry of Finance

I put it in the "Infrastructure" category personally since I believe this falls under that rather than "Public Transportation". I want to ensure that this gets the attention of the Infrastructure Ontario.

I would Highly Encourage you guys to fill out the above form for the 2024 Budget Consultations and to include the desire to have a Sheppard Subway and to have funding included for it in the 2024 Budget.

what did you put in for organization name?

 

[Sierra]

Sure, Berlin is the closest, although they're still incomparable given historical factors (also Berlin's city limits include a bunch of empty space mostly untouched by transit).

"There's still so little truly rapid transit in the core, and the Ontario line alone won't add much". Just because Toronto's density is concentrated in a few corridors, leading to a less exciting map, doesn't mean there's little rapid transit in the core. Toronto is very dense centrally, but generally in areas currently or soon-to-be served by rapid transit. Even Parkdale, your own example, will have a rapid transit stop on its eastern border at Queen and Dufferin. Anyway, a superimposed TTC + OL + Go Expansion map will be pleasant enough:

View attachment 522160

You mean King and Dufferin? That is a 30 minute walk from my place in Parkdale.