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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

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Ontario Northland on LinkedIn: Ontario Northland is proud to be working toward the reinstatement of…

Ontario Northland is proud to be working toward the reinstatement of passenger rail in Northeastern Ontario – and we want to hear from you! We will be…
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Northlander Passenger Train - Ontario Northland

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Screenshot_2023-09-26_144005.jpg
 
If the Northlander is a success What are the chances the province adds more passenger rail service? I am thinking things like Toronto - Sudbury or North Bay- Sudbury SSM. For the last one, with HCR losing a major client, the line does look more likely to be taken over by the province.
 
micheal_can said:
If the Northlander is a success What are the chances the province adds more passenger rail service? I am thinking things like Toronto - Sudbury or North Bay- Sudbury SSM. For the last one, with HCR losing a major client, the line does look more likely to be taken over by the province.
Click to expand...
Similar to my response over on the VIA thread, only if an Ontario government decides to get into inter-city passenger rail in a larger way, and I don't see it. About half (slightly more) of the proposed Northlander route is on their own trackage, and they 'rent space' on CN to connect with a major market. In addition to increased costs such as renting track space, the further then get away from their own existing infrastructure the more complicated things like maintenance, staffing, scheduling, etc. become. They already operate buses on those routes.

If HCR becomes (more) unprofitable, I suspect it will be allowed to die. I certainly don't see the government getting into a money-losing freight operation on a permanent basis and it isn't justifiable as a passenger-only route, particularly since essentially parallels Hwy 17 for its entire length. Although I'm not sure if the numbers are calculated similarly, ONR handles approximately 40,000 carloads/year on its network. According to the Sudbury Star, HCR about 12,000. If Domtar isn't picked up (and I have to believe it is big chunk of that 12K), its handful of customers are clustered at the far ends of the line.
 
I will address these 2 separately.
lenaitch said:
Similar to my response over on the VIA thread, only if an Ontario government decides to get into inter-city passenger rail in a larger way, and I don't see it. About half (slightly more) of the proposed Northlander route is on their own trackage, and they 'rent space' on CN to connect with a major market. In addition to increased costs such as renting track space, the further then get away from their own existing infrastructure the more complicated things like maintenance, staffing, scheduling, etc. become. They already operate buses on those routes.
Click to expand...

If we assume a date of Fall 2025 for the restoration of the Northlander, I would expect that by 2030, we will know whether its return is a success. So, if the province wnts to get into intercity passenger rail in a large way, I would suspect by then something would be released, possibly near an election as a way to buy votes.

lenaitch said:
If HCR becomes (more) unprofitable, I suspect it will be allowed to die. I certainly don't see the government getting into a money-losing freight operation on a permanent basis and it isn't justifiable as a passenger-only route, particularly since essentially parallels Hwy 17 for its entire length. Although I'm not sure if the numbers are calculated similarly, ONR handles approximately 40,000 carloads/year on its network. According to the Sudbury Star, HCR about 12,000. If Domtar isn't picked up (and I have to believe it is big chunk of that 12K), its handful of customers are clustered at the far ends of the line.
Click to expand...

At the east end, the only other users would be the Totten mine and the lumber mill in Narin Centre. If this line were to be abandoned, I feel that the middle section would be gone. However, If the continued viability of the companies along the line becomes in question due to the closure of the line, that would be the reason for the ONR to own it.

Lets look at populations,

ONR North of North Bay, not including North Bay
Cochrane 5,321
Iroquois Falls 4,537
Timmins 41,145
Black River-Matheson 2,438
Kirkland Lake 7,981
Englehart 1,479
Earlton 1,166
Larder Lake 730
Temiskaming Shores 9,634
Cobalt 1,128
Temagami 802

Total: 76,356

HCR,not including Sudbury, but including SSM:

Sault Ste. Marie 72,051
Blind River 3,472
Sables-Spanish Rivers 3,214
Elliot Lake 11,372
Espanola 4,996

Total: 95,104

en.wikipedia.org

Northern Ontario - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

So, to argue that there isn't the population base for supporting it on the HCR vs the ONR isn't true.

These next few years will be interesting for the HCR line. It may show what the province is willing to do.
 
micheal_can said:
If the Northlander is a success What are the chances the province adds more passenger rail service? I am thinking things like Toronto - Sudbury or North Bay- Sudbury SSM. For the last one, with HCR losing a major client, the line does look more likely to be taken over by the province.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of an alternating Northlander/ Sudbury service. That way North Bay gets daily service while Sudbury gets some days while Timmins/Cochrane get the others.
 
micheal_can said:
I will address these 2 separately.


If we assume a date of Fall 2025 for the restoration of the Northlander, I would expect that by 2030, we will know whether its return is a success. So, if the province wnts to get into intercity passenger rail in a large way, I would suspect by then something would be released, possibly near an election as a way to buy votes.



At the east end, the only other users would be the Totten mine and the lumber mill in Narin Centre. If this line were to be abandoned, I feel that the middle section would be gone. However, If the continued viability of the companies along the line becomes in question due to the closure of the line, that would be the reason for the ONR to own it.

Lets look at populations,

ONR North of North Bay, not including North Bay
Cochrane 5,321
Iroquois Falls 4,537
Timmins 41,145
Black River-Matheson 2,438
Kirkland Lake 7,981
Englehart 1,479
Earlton 1,166
Larder Lake 730
Temiskaming Shores 9,634
Cobalt 1,128
Temagami 802

Total: 76,356

HCR,not including Sudbury, but including SSM:

Sault Ste. Marie 72,051
Blind River 3,472
Sables-Spanish Rivers 3,214
Elliot Lake 11,372
Espanola 4,996

Total: 95,104

en.wikipedia.org

Northern Ontario - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

So, to argue that there isn't the population base for supporting it on the HCR vs the ONR isn't true.

These next few years will be interesting for the HCR line. It may show what the province is willing to do.
Click to expand...
Interesting that you only include the communities along the NB/Timmins/Cochrane route and not the route to Kap. Regardless, the comparison is rather immaterial. I'm not sure I ever said that there wasn't the population base to support HCR; there isn't the business base to support it. Even with Domtar, the customer base is concentrated to both ends of the line. There are no customers that I am aware of, certainly nothing of consistent volume, between Espanola (Mckerrow) and Sault Ste. Marie; so about 130 out of 180 total route miles. Even when Elliot Lake was a mining town, I'm not sure anything was shipped out by rail.

Without continuing government support, pretty much the entire length of the line would exist to serve Essar Algoma and the Shell tank farm. Both which could be served from the US or by putting the diamond back in at CP Franz for the CN Soo sub (which, admittedly, sees little to no traffic as well, but I don't think is costing the taxpayer anything).

If they ever put the Ferrochrome refinery in The Soo that may change things, but that is years down the road.
 
lenaitch said:
Interesting that you only include the communities along the NB/Timmins/Cochrane route and not the route to Kap. Regardless, the comparison is rather immaterial. I'm not sure I ever said that there wasn't the population base to support HCR; there isn't the business base to support it.
Click to expand...

I did not include Kap as it will not stop there. Closest would be Cochrane, which is over 1 hour away. I did include Elliot Lake as it is only 20minutes from the line.

Lets be fair, the existing ONR line is not exactly a profit maker for the government, somuch so, they have been trying to divest it all since the 1990s.

lenaitch said:
Even with Domtar, the customer base is concentrated to both ends of the line. There are no customers that I am aware of, certainly nothing of consistent volume, between Espanola (Mckerrow) and Sault Ste. Marie; so about 130 out of 180 total route miles. Even when Elliot Lake was a mining town, I'm not sure anything was shipped out by rail.

Without continuing government support, pretty much the entire length of the line would exist to serve Essar Algoma and the Shell tank farm. Both which could be served from the US or by putting the diamond back in at CP Franz for the CN Soo sub (which, admittedly, sees little to no traffic as well, but I don't think is costing the taxpayer anything).

If they ever put the Ferrochrome refinery in The Soo that may change things, but that is years down the road.
Click to expand...

All this speaks to why instead of supporting the existing private company, buying it and putting it under the ONR umbrella is what I feel should be done.
 
micheal_can said:
I did not include Kap as it will not stop there. Closest would be Cochrane, which is over 1 hour away. I did include Elliot Lake as it is only 20minutes from the line.

Lets be fair, the existing ONR line is not exactly a profit maker for the government, somuch so, they have been trying to divest it all since the 1990s.
Click to expand...
Ah, I didn't realize you were only talking about passenger. The Northlander will also see feed traffic from the PBX, although I don't know how many typically travel further south.

The rail network might not be a big money maker, but I don't know how much it is a cost. Their annual reports cite subsidy income, but I don't know how to separate out non-passenger operations. To the best of my recollection, one government tried to divest it, once.
 
lenaitch said:
Ah, I didn't realize you were only talking about passenger. The Northlander will also see feed traffic from the PBX, although I don't know how many typically travel further south.

The rail network might not be a big money maker, but I don't know how much it is a cost. Their annual reports cite subsidy income, but I don't know how to separate out non-passenger operations. To the best of my recollection, one government tried to divest it, once.
Click to expand...
The other thing, in SSM there is the Agawa Canyon Tourist Train that could see people taking a train to it. That train can have 900 people per trip this time of year. It is a 10+ car train.
 
lenaitch said:
Ah, I didn't realize you were only talking about passenger. The Northlander will also see feed traffic from the PBX, although I don't know how many typically travel further south.

The rail network might not be a big money maker, but I don't know how much it is a cost. Their annual reports cite subsidy income, but I don't know how to separate out non-passenger operations. To the best of my recollection, one government tried to divest it, once.
Click to expand...
I‘ve ridden these lines a few times to many times. Often wondered why, in one or two cases, they are not extended to serve greater areas. The harsh reality is that in many cases an ONR bus network would do a better job of connecting communities with frequency of service at a lower supported cost per passenger then rail.

(Given that, I have my own thoughts on rerouting the Canadian, and then extending the existing RDC service route (from Sudbury) through White River and beyond. My thoughts are not always cost driven and it’s easy to think how that could be a wonderful idea without the operating realities associated with operation)

The Northern Policy Institute released a study in 2020 on remote rail service to communities of marginal size ( and let’s be real, these are very marginal population levels. All of the population listed above does not equal that of Oakville and Burlington) which makes for interesting reading and has a long list of further resources.

Enhancing the tourist potential of the lines and equipment would be a plus. Providing greater ONR integration with bus and rail would be a plus as well. Where VIA rail fits in, outside of the Canadian is a question leading into the future. Initiatives for remote rail
passenger rail service in Canada seem to be concentrated in agencies outside of VIA.
 
Last edited:
just east of the creek said:
I‘ve ridden these lines a few times to many times. Often wondered why, in one or two cases, they are not extended to serve greater areas. The harsh reality is that in many cases an ONR bus network would do a better job of connecting communities with frequency of service at a lower supported cost per passenger then rail.

(Given that, I have my own thoughts on rerouting the Canadian, and then extending the existing RDC service route (from Sudbury) through White River and beyond. My thoughts are not always cost driven and it’s easy to think how that could be a wonderful idea without the operating realities associated with operation)

The Northern Policy Institute released a study in 2020 on remote rail service to communities of marginal size ( and let’s be real, these are very marginal population levels. All of the population listed above does not equal that of Oakville and Burlington) which makes for interesting reading and has a long list of further resources.

Enhancing the tourist potential of the lines and equipment would be a plus. Providing greater ONR integration with bus and rail would be a plus as well. Where VIA rail fits in, outside of the Canadian is a question leading into the future. Initiatives for remote rail
passenger rail service in Canada seem to be concentrated in agencies outside of VIA.
Click to expand...
Extended to where? You mean off their trackage? More trainsets, more staff, more operating costs, more track usage rental, all that stuff.

ONR's answer to all such things, as would be VIA's, will be they will do what the government directs and funds them to do. I don't image there is anyone on the Board or in ONR's leadership that would be arguing against any expansion; just tell us what you want and give us the dough.
 
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