General railway discussions

[lenaitch]

The northern route between Ottawa and Sudbury was abandoned and now when there is a disruption in the Kingston Sub there is no way to get to the east coast.

The ROW from Sudbury to Ottawa (ish), was CP, so I assume they care more about their Belleville Sub than the CN Kingston Sub. Up until fairly recently, CP didn't go east of Montreal. The reacquired the route through northern Maine and can now get to Saint John. In terms of supply chain, traffic from the east coast has a greater need to get to southern Ontario than it does northern Ontario or the west.

CN built a port at Prince Rupert to alleviate pressure at Vancouver. Maybe if they could build a port in the mouth of the ST Lawrence that would reduce strain on Halifax

It might, I don't know the capacity pressures on Halifax. One thing it won't do is have any impact on Pacific trade, which I would suspect is much higher. The "mouth of the St. Lawrence" is very isolated and rugged. Extending any kind of high capacity connected infrastructure would be quite challenging. Promotors have pushed for a container port at Sydney NS and I saw a proposal for some kind of port and rail connection I think east of the Saguenay. Both would be pretty much greenfield, cost billions and, in my view, not a good use of my tax dollars.

A key takeaway is that CN built out the Price Rupert terminal, not the taxpayer.

The northern route would absolutely be my first choice for strategic redundancy. Followed by a new mountain crossing as bottleneck relief; restoring CPs southern route seems attractive in terms of reusing corridors, but maybe not in an ideal location from a network perspective….

What "northern route" do you mean? The other post referenced the former CP Ottawa Valley route. Do you mean the former National Transcontinental/Grand Trunk route through northern Quebec. It was a money loser from just about the day it opened. Both CN and CP marshal their eastern trains through the GTA. Why would CN want to go the Quebec City?

Many forget how much both CN and CP freight traffic from the west is routed through the US and pretty much has to come back in at Ontario.

The only specific infrastructure called out is a road - twinning Hwy 185 between QC and NB. There are some interesting observations about things like making full use of container capacity on the St Lawrence, and changes at ports to make containers move through more quickly, and vague references to rail capacity improvements, but a recurring theme is how limited the effect of capital improvements is when labour shortages are a significant issue, whether in the industry itself or federal bodies such as CBSA and CTA. The supply chain is a chain, and if you make one link titanium it only helps so much when the next ring is made of rolled up tinfoil.

that said, this is a report by industry types - the mention of a four year regulatory examination of the Milton intermodal terminal makes no mention to the degree to which the proponent took something sizeable on without receiving local community buy-in.

Quebec has been milking that stretch for years, claiming that it is more of a federal responsibility since it benefits Canadians more than Quebecers.

The one proposal I found interesting is to allow containers to move off marine terminals 'in bond' to clear congestion. That would essentially move customs clearance inland and would require the cooperation of CBSA and possibly some regulatory changes. From my non-expert perspective, it seems to make sense.

 

[Bojaxs]

but a recurring theme is how limited the effect of capital improvements is when labour shortages are a significant issue,

I work for CN. We're understaffed right now. Unlimited OT for whoever wants it. New hires drop like flies cause they don't like the idea of having to work weekends and/or being stuck on night shifts when they first get hired.
Anyone want to make $35-$40 per hour and have a pension? Stock options? Willing to sacrifice your social life? All you need is a high school education, driver's license, and clean driving record.

CN is so understaffed they send guys out of the Toronto yard to work at the Montreal yard. Even though they can't really afford to lose guys at the Toronto yard.

 

[smallspy]

It already has a study completed?

Yes.

Dan

 

[lenaitch]

I work for CN. We're understaffed right now. Unlimited OT for whoever wants it. New hires drop like flies cause they don't like the idea of having to work weekends and/or being stuck on night shifts when they first get hired.
Anyone want to make $35-$40 per hour and have a pension? Stock options? Willing to sacrifice your social life? All you need is a high school education, driver's license, and clean driving record.

CN is so understaffed they send guys out of the Toronto yard to work at the Montreal yard. Even though they can't really afford to lose guys at the Toronto yard.

Kinda folds into the wider discussion of staffing across many industries. When you can't attract and keep someone at $35-40/hour there is clearly something going on that I don't understand.

 

[crs1026]

It looks like the federal government is waking up and are looking to implement changes to help supply chain bottlenecks in Canada.

Transport Minister Omar Alghabra’s national supply chain task force, formed in the wake of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, determined the country needs a Plan B. In a report published earlier this month,

Finally had time to read this report. Some of the recommendations around streamlining and removing bottlenecks make eminent sense. A few observations:

- They propose to revise the role of the CTA to shift the power balance away from railways towards shippers. This commentary validates what has been observed in many places, and can be extrapolated to both freight and passenger.... the railways are efficient and profitable but not serving the public interest sufficiently. The old interswitching axe is raised again. I am skeptical that Ottawa will act on this one, but there's not much doubt left that something more is needed.... maybe if Moses wins a byelection somewhere it might be possible.
- They propose an interesting corrective action plan for labour shortages (which are indisputable). The added labour supply they target is said to be a) First Nations and b) new immigrants. In other words, they are proposing to build their labour supply around the most marginalised groups in the country. While this sounds altruistic, it actually implies minimal competition for labour and tapping the group most likely to work for marginal wages. The result over time being.... the transportation labour pool will consist of low paying jobs and as those marginalised groups gain transport skills and work experience, they will leave for better wages. This perpetuates the labour shortage. It's a bargain basement labour strategy, in short. A better strategy would be to figure out how to attract workers from other sectors, and retain them.....perhaps at greater cost. Let those other sectors absorb and train the marginalised. Let Amazon be the business that can't find workers.
- There is lots of talk (on the one hand) about the success and value of running ports and airports using a commercialised model, but (on the other hand) in solving supply chain issues by subsidising ports and airports. So.... either that commercialised strategy wasn't that great (it may have created efficiencies, but it choked capitalisation to accompany growth in demand) or it isn't viable going forward. If we do need more investment in ports and airports, that money will have to come from the public purse. I wonder about the politics of this.... need to position public role in ports and airports as a "great discovery" rather than admitting that the last regime screwed this up, or there won't be the courage to tackle this.
- There is a lot of attention to clearing the backlog of containers at port, but not much said about what it will actually take to deliver the goods inland. There is a suggestion that storage of undelivered containers is being used as a form of warehousing. I really wonder why there isn't more commercial activity here. Maybe we need more container hubs (with dedicated trains to those hubs).
- Thankfully, no one is suggestiing that AV trucking will save the day (it may help, but it's not a silver bullet)

My last comment will border on a fantasy statement, but I'm dead serious. All of the strategy seems pretty short term. The solution to the ports and rail congestion issue in the west may be a new and better port, and a new and better rail corridor through the mountains. That needs a Van Horne/ John A MacDonald kind of vision, or even just a Simplon/Gotthard vision, that we aren't seeing here. For the traffic volumes we are looking at for the next hundred years, adding a new route through the mountains isn't really exorbitant.
Hint: The straight line distance from Hope BC to Crowsnest BC is 490 km's. That's about the length of 9 Gotthard Base Tunnels. A two- track, level, heavily tunnelled railway that avoids the grades and fuel consumption/carbon use and weather and environmental disruptions, and passes beneath rather than over First Nations, is not really that big a fantasy project in the context of how much freight we will move over the Rocky Mountains in the next century.
PS - And it doesn't have to be rail, either. Hyperloop may be a boondoggle, but maybe some new technology will emerge that replaces steel wheel on steel rail.
No, I'm not expecting anyone to propose this tomorrow..... I'm just trying to show how we need to think bigger and further from the box.

- Paul

 

[Bojaxs]

Kinda folds into the wider discussion of staffing across many industries. When you can't attract and keep someone at $35-40/hour there is clearly something going on that I don't understand.

I'm not a conductor, I work in the Intermodal yards as an equipment operator. Shunt trucks, cranes, etc.

IMO it all comes down to the scheduling. Railroads are terrible for work/life balance. The only people who do well and stick it out are the ones who are motivated to make money.
When you first start out, you have to go on the "spare board" which basically means you're "on call". CN is unionized, and when it comes to bidding on a shift, the most senior guys get the day shifts with Sat/Sun off, where as the most junior guys get stuck working nights with Tues/Wednesday off. When it dawns on them that they're not going to have a Saturday off (unless they use vacation days) for the next 5 years, they decide to quit and go work another job for less money with weekends off. I've been at CN for 4 years now, and I've manage to score a day shift with Tues/Wednesdays off. Everyone is counting on Milton getting built. We're hoping it'll open up a bunch of Sat/Sun shifts.
Money wise the railroad is great! I'm in the best financial shape of my life. I couldn't make this type of money anywhere else, cause I only have a high school education. I try to tell new hires to tough it out. I explain to them how important the pension is, but these young guys in their early 20's care more about going out on Fri/Sat nights than early retirement. They get called at 2am on Sunday morning to report to work for 4am, and they don't show up. Who can blame them? I probably would have done the same thing when I was their age.
Now when it comes to conductors. It's an even worst situation. They get paid more, but I feel bad for them. I can make Tues/Wednesday work for me. But their schedules are absolutely messed up. If they didn't pay these guys the most, they wouldn't have anyone driving these trains.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not a conductor, I work in the Intermodal yards as an equipment operator. Shunt trucks, cranes, etc.

IMO it all comes down to the scheduling. Railroads are terrible for work/life balance. The only people who do well and stick it out are the ones who are motivated to make money.
When you first start out, you have to go on the "spare board" which basically means you're "on call". CN is unionized, and when it comes to bidding on a shift, the most senior guys get the day shifts with Sat/Sun off, where as the most junior guys get stuck working nights with Tues/Wednesday off. When it dawns on them that they're not going to have a Saturday off (unless they use vacation days) for the next 5 years, they decide to quit and go work another job for less money with weekends off. I've been at CN for 4 years now, and I've manage to score a day shift with Tues/Wednesdays off. Everyone is counting on Milton getting built. We're hoping it'll open up a bunch of Sat/Sun shifts.
Money wise the railroad is great! I'm in the best financial shape of my life. I couldn't make this type of money anywhere else, cause I only have a high school education. I try to tell new hires to tough it out. I explain to them how important the pension is, but these young guys in their early 20's care more about going out on Fri/Sat nights than early retirement. They get called at 2am on Sunday morning to report to work for 4am, and they don't show up. Who can blame them? I probably would have done the same thing when I was their age.
Now when it comes to conductors. It's an even worst situation. They get paid more, but I feel bad for them. I can make Tues/Wednesday work for me. But their schedules are absolutely messed up. If they didn't pay these guys the most, they wouldn't have anyone driving these trains.

Great analysis. I suppose the railroad call practices worked better in days of old when most lived in small divisional towns and they sent boys on bicycles to hunt you down.

A lot of organized industries, particularly in the transportation sector, base their scheduling on seniority. I once lived with a conductor and his family, and know a couple of airline pilots, and if you stick with it, you can make serious money for a comparative handful of favourable hours.

If the emerging workforce is expecting total predictability, top pay, benefits and advantages from day one and so-called 'bank hours' , we could be in trouble. Perhaps it up to the employer and unions to clearly lay out expectations. It might not make staffing better but at least candidates who are applying for a 24/7 outside job with a 9-5 office mindset might walk out at the hiring hall rather than get in and much up the system.

 

[Bojaxs]

Speaking of grade separation, you know what still hasn't started yet, the CN Goreway crossing in Missisauga.

After 30 years, major Mississauga bridge looks like it will finally be built | insauga

It’s been a long three decades in the works, but it now appears a bridge over CN train tracks in the Malton area of Mississauga is finally being built. A contract to build the Goreway Bridge, long sought after in order to alleviate heavy traffic in the area, looks like it will be awarded in […]

www.insauga.com

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Great analysis. I suppose the railroad call practices worked better in days of old when most lived in small divisional towns and they sent boys on bicycles to hunt you down.

A lot of organized industries, particularly in the transportation sector, base their scheduling on seniority. I once lived with a conductor and his family, and know a couple of airline pilots, and if you stick with it, you can make serious money for a comparative handful of favourable hours.

If the emerging workforce is expecting total predictability, top pay, benefits and advantages from day one and so-called 'bank hours' , we could be in trouble. Perhaps it up to the employer and unions to clearly lay out expectations. It might not make staffing better but at least candidates who are applying for a 24/7 outside job with a 9-5 office mindset might walk out at the hiring hall rather than get in and much up the system.

The call practices have also got a lot more unpredictable over the past decade, let alone century. Add attendance policies and an employee friendly economy and they’ve got big problems.

tbh they do a decent job of advising what the expectations ARE, it’s just that the reality is that they are unreasonable for anyone who wants any kind of life outside work. At a time that hiring isn’t easy.

The railways are really good at shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[crs1026]

The call practices have also got a lot more unpredictable over the past decade, let alone century. Add attendance policies and an employee friendly economy and they’ve got big problems.

tbh they do a decent job of advising what the expectations ARE, it’s just that the reality is that they are unreasonable for anyone who wants any kind of life outside work. At a time that hiring isn’t easy.

The railways are really good at shooting themselves in the foot.

The system needs a reset, but that is hard to achieve in a collective agreement environment where the parties have built up such a long history of gives and takes which they must protect when changes are suggested. It would take a very courageous (or suicidal) third party to impose a clean slate - the potential to be accused of favouring one party over the other (even inadvertently) is huge.

Despite the railways’ efforts to have it their way, rail workers have their own tricks to game the system. In the digital age, they can access all the crew call data, so the know exactly how many turns out they are at any time, and that lets them predict what and when their next call might be. That will inform whether they try to book off, etc. (In some ways, it might be better if they didn’t have this data, as they can overthink things where in past times they just waited for the crew caller to find them).

it’s not uncommon to hear that a particular terminal is “out of crews” on weekends - especially long weekends. There are ways to get time off, they succeed some of the time.

This is not to say that the complaints aren’t valid…. they certainly are…. my point is, it’s a system that all concerned have agreed to make complicated, and with so many perceived angles to it, it has reached the point of disfunction.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Canadian government, Lac-Megantic agree on land sale for rail bypass project​

 

[Allandale25]

This project continues to impress.

 

[Allandale25]

Canadian government, Lac-Megantic agree on land sale for rail bypass project​

https://twitter.com/x/status/1588612859348623361

 

[Urban Sky]

View attachment 437147

https://twitter.com/x/status/1588612859348623361

As someone who has visited Lac-Mégantic less than two months ago with its old CP station which couldn’t be more central (200 meters walk to the lakefront), I can’t think of a more wasteful rail project like this one (has anyone seen a cost-benefit ratio? Can’t imagine it can possibly be higher than one-fith for what is maybe a once-daily freight train…), just because the only way we can imagine to ensure that such a catastrophe won’t reproduce itself at the same place is to make sure that no trains run anymore at that place and just because we lack the confidence or determination to make sure it will never happen again anywhere in this country.

In a nodd to a famous series of articles published by a certain “honest news” outlet in the US, I have to think of “‘No way to prevent this!’ says only country where this happens all the time” whenever we hear of a new derailment - they are just taken as an inevitable side effect of modern life - just like mass shootings in the US or cars killing pedestrians or cyclists in any country…

 

[Bureaucromancer]

As someone who has visited Lac-Mégantic less than two months ago with its old CP station which couldn’t be more central (200 meters walk to the lakefront), I can’t think of a more wasteful rail project like this one (has anyone seen a cost-benefit ratio? Can’t imagine it can possibly be higher than one-fith for what is maybe a once-daily freight train…), just because the only way we can imagine to ensure that such a catastrophe won’t reproduce itself at the same place is to make sure that no trains run anymore at that place and just because we lack the confidence or determination to make sure it will never happen again anywhere in this country.

In a nodd to a famous series of articles published by a certain “honest news” outlet in the US, I have to think of “‘No way to prevent this!’ says only country where this happens all the time” whenever we hear of a new derailment - they are just taken as an inevitable side effect of modern life - just like mass shootings in the US or cars killing pedestrians or cyclists…

I mean while you're not WRONG, I don't think fighting this is really worth any significant amount of time or energy...

We are, more or less, a democratic society and that means that at times we're going to do things based more on feeling than anything objective. It's pretty bloody obvious where the feeling we should do something about Lac-Mégantic comes from, and hard to argue with from anything but the kind of technocratic perspective that really doesn't assuage that feeling.