Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[waterloowarrior]

you can get ikea to deliver, you know...

For your uninformed information, if you look at either side of Bloor-Danforth, for example, one side was torn down and demolished in the past 75 years: the city could have the cajones in those days to 'set back' the property line 4 or 5 meters at that juncture and allowed for the street to have been '6-laned' Vancouver did. Hamilton did. Sao Paulo did. Silly Hall dropped the ball in the '20s and '30s and only woke up in the '40s when they laid out the freeway map to undo the damage done by previous councils criminal negligence, or just plain laziness. Take your pick.

The subway? You're joking, right? I've been to Sao Paulo (a 3rd world country, right?): there is a subway that works. (Perhaps we just need to learn to scrape the body parts off the train wheels a little faster and shorten up the down time on our precious Metro?)

sao paulo is one of the 5 worst cities in the world for traffic, great model! Rich people own helicopters so they can fly above the traffic. they have 4 times the people but a smaller metro (km).

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aAwzOeXmIxgk
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1733872,00.html

 

[Dichotomy]

Dichotomy -

All I can say is leave. Unlike you, Torontonians measure democracy in voting results (not transit patterns, even though those go against you as well). If you want to rant and rave about everything you think is wrong with the world and issue fire-and-brimstone tirades that fly in the face of all observed reality fine, but nobody will listen to you. If you really find it soo intolerable living in Toronto, why are you even here?

You can move to Kansas City, watch Lou Dobbs, moan about the "elite" and list conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory as to why nobody agrees with you. No one likes the Gardiner. Calling them idiots for not liking the Gardiner and throwing out binary choices which a chimp can see through (widen the Gardiner or face living in poverty) isn't helping you're case and just detracts from the logical arguments that do exist.

No, you get out of the sandbox...I was here first. Is that your solution? What makes you think you are right?
We agree on not liking the Gardiner. Where we diverge (I suspect) is that I believe we are stuck with it, because you and I both know we don't have the billions needed to build a tunnel under the Humber Bay or the fiscal imagination to figure out how.
Plenty of people are listening to me, and I am just getting started. I have followed city politics for decades and rarely gotten involved, but I have had enough.

Take a look in the garages of those fancy new condos downtown. Are they empty? At some point the socialists have to be given the boot, while there is still time (and money) to do something.

Do not mistake rising property values as acceptance of the status quo. So many people moving to this city are coming from far, far less and expect nothing more. Those of us who have watched the steady decline of this city are getting fed up. Taxes us are; services are down. Enough is enough.

 

[confusion]

No, you get out of the sandbox...I was here first.

Ok kids, let's stop fighting and let this be a discussion based on constructive criticism.

You've both got arguments... I personally feel that all Canadians need to support anything that can convert urban centres away from the car culture that is currently holding us hostage economically right now. To which I say, Dichotomy, why don't you just take the GO, and investigate something called ZipCars if you need some wheels.

 

[Dichotomy]

you can get ikea to deliver, you know...



sao paulo is one of the 5 worst cities in the world for traffic, great model! Rich people own helicopters so they can fly above the traffic. they have 4 times the people but a smaller metro (km).

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aAwzOeXmIxgk
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1733872,00.html

Have you driven there? I have. Many times. My partner is Brazilian. Of course they have traffic. No major city is going to have traffic like Owen Sound or Saskatoon. Commute times are awful in all cities.
Traffic in Toronto is waaaay beyond commute times.

 

[Dilla]

No, you get out of the sandbox...I was here first. Is that your solution? What makes you think you are right?
We agree on not liking the Gardiner. Where we diverge (I suspect) is that I believe we are stuck with it, because you and I both know we don't have the billions needed to build a tunnel under the Humber Bay or the fiscal imagination to figure out how.
Plenty of people are listening to me, and I am just getting started. I have followed city politics for decades and rarely gotten involved, but I have had enough.

Take a look in the garages of those fancy new condos downtown. Are they empty? At some point the socialists have to be given the boot, while there is still time (and money) to do something.

Do not mistake rising property values as acceptance of the status quo. So many people moving to this city are coming from far, far less and expect nothing more. Those of us who have watched the steady decline of this city are getting fed up. Taxes us are; services are down. Enough is enough.

They see me troll'n...they hating...annoying... and try'n to catch me typing dirty...Try to catch me typ'n dirty...try to catch me typ'n dirty.

 

[Whoaccio]

No, you get out of the sandbox...I was here first. Is that your solution? What makes you think you are right?

I'm not telling you to get out, you should just question why you stay here when you so clearly dislike it.

We agree on not liking the Gardiner. Where we diverge (I suspect) is that I believe we are stuck with it, because you and I both know we don't have the billions needed to build a tunnel under the Humber Bay or the fiscal imagination to figure out how.

Uhh.. no. I diverge in that I know we have 300m (less the 120m for FSE) to tear down an underused section over 8 years. We are most definitely not "stuck with it". The entire Gardiner, from end to end, carries 8% of people to the core. Of those, only 15% (or 1.2% of total) use the Gardiner for through traffic. The difference between you and I is that you behave as though forcing 1.2% of a travelers to the core onto an at grade road will somehow lead to the mother of economic apocalypses. After all, San Francisco totally fell apart after it did it, right?

Plenty of people are listening to me, and I am just getting started. I have followed city politics for decades and rarely gotten involved, but I have had enough.

People are listening to you because you are obnoxious and loud, not because they actually respect you're opinion.

Take a look in the garages of those fancy new condos downtown. Are they empty? At some point the socialists have to be given the boot, while there is still time (and money) to do something.

Are they driving the stretch of highway between Jarvis street and the DVP? The answer is unequivocal, no. That is really the question, and you seem woefully keen to avoid it. Going on tangents about socialists and how city planners in the 1920s failed to make super highways underscores how you really have nothing to back up you're hot air. Once again. 1.2% of trips in the downtown core use this stretch of road. If you can't answer why this 1.2% is so important that world as we know it will collapse without it, don't bother.

 

[Dichotomy]

Ok kids, let's stop fighting and let this be a discussion based on constructive criticism.

You've both got arguments... I personally feel that all Canadians need to support anything that can convert urban centres away from the car culture that is currently holding us hostage economically right now. To which I say, Dichotomy, why don't you just take the GO, and investigate something called ZipCars if you need some wheels.

Is that what we aspire to, after crawling out of the Primordial Ooze? To be stuffed into a tiny tin can, shaken and rattled to work every day, with someone's armpit in our face and a pimply-faced teenager beside, blasting music on his/her iPod?

C'mon. Let's talk about the elephant in the room here: the socialists have us all convinced that having money is BAD. Having a car is BAD. We should all drive bicycles and eat tofu. I wish I was exaggerating. The agenda has been hijacked. Completely hijacked.

To be sure, we need to move toward more efficient vehicles and more efficient urban cores, but is the TTC what we are to be satisfied with?
My car had a flat tire 3 weeks ago and I took the Bloor line. OMIGOD. There is no way around it: it is a cultural/economic divide. Gasp. Are we allowed to even say that any more?
We are told people in big cities don't relate, that the car alienates people. Well, I didn't see any interactoin going on the subway that day. Office workers staring into space. Over half the people were wearing iPods. Podpeople - is that what we've become? The woman beside me chowed down on her breakfast: soggy cereal, then a banana. Good grief, lady - get up 10 minutes earlier! Better yet - lose 40 lbs and walk to work!

Is this what 10,000 years of civilization has brought us to?

 

[paraone]

oh you sick bastard! I think I just threw up and swallowed some!

 

[Whoaccio]

Of course they have traffic. No major city is going to have traffic like Owen Sound or Saskatoon. Commute times are awful in all cities.
Traffic in Toronto is waaaay beyond commute times.

What the hell does that even mean? Traffic is measured by how long it takes to get from Point A to Point B, not some gut call based off of what you thought of a city while on vacation. You can't hold up Sao Paulo as a model city for traffic, and when all empirical data suggests otherwise, apply some unspecified, undefined, ethereal metric to back up you're intuition. Traffic in Toronto is not "waaaaay beyond commute times", traffic in Toronto (and everywhere else in the world) is commute times.

You might as well start saying life expectancy isn't a good measure of health, GDP isn't a good measure of economic activity or literacy isn't a good indicator of education.

 

[Dichotomy]

I'm not telling you to get out, you should just question why you stay here when you so clearly dislike it.



Uhh.. no. I diverge in that I know we have 300m (less the 120m for FSE) to tear down an underused section over 8 years. We are most definitely not "stuck with it". The entire Gardiner, from end to end, carries 8% of people to the core. Of those, only 15% (or 1.2% of total) use the Gardiner for through traffic. The difference between you and I is that you behave as though forcing 1.2% of a travelers to the core onto an at grade road will somehow lead to the mother of economic apocalypses. After all, San Francisco totally fell apart after it did it, right?




People are listening to you because you are obnoxious and loud, not because they actually respect you're opinion.



Are they driving the stretch of highway between Jarvis street and the DVP? The answer is unequivocal, no. That is really the question, and you seem woefully keen to avoid it. Going on tangents about socialists and how city planners in the 1920s failed to make super highways underscores how you really have nothing to back up you're hot air. Once again. 1.2% of trips in the downtown core use this stretch of road. If you can't answer why this 1.2% is so important that world as we know it will collapse without it, don't bother.

Use your EYES, man. Don't swallow the pablum. Gee, why is SF building that big, new double decker bridge across the bay? To whisk cyclists across?

I sit on my buddy's balcony at the Gooderham building on Parliament and watch no traffic pass by many Saturday evenings while drinking cocktails.

Always with the personal insults, though? People don't agree with you, so you get personal. You don't know me. I could be your neighbor. Ain't the internet great? I could just be a gadfly.

And the planners did fudge it 75 years ago. Anyone with eyes can see that. We have a wonderful grid pattern, except every side street wants speed bumps and one way signs. Why was this city addicted to 4 way thoroughfares (even up to Finch! paved in the late '60s!)? Gad. Downtown Collingwood is 4 lanes!

Besides, even if I believed for one second that $300 million would do it, and that traffic would not be affected in the area, you and I both know this is but the Trojan Horse.

 

[waterloowarrior]

do we have 266 KM traffic jams here? at 7:30 PM (toronto to Kingston)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aAwzOeXmIxgk&refer=exclusive

just beat the record of 165 km jam in March
http://www.aboutsaopaulo.com/news/transportation/traffic-jams-in-sao-paulo/

Haven't been there, but clearly from media reports and from the experts in the field it is far worse than Toronto.

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/04/14/america/OUKWD-UK-BRAZIL-TRAFFIC.php
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/20/brazil

also

Mercer - # 15
http://www.citymayors.com/features/quality_survey.html

 

[urbanfan89]

//obligatory

 

[Whoaccio]

Use your EYES, man. Don't swallow the pablum. Gee, why is SF building that big, new double decker bridge across the bay? To whisk cyclists across?

I sit on my buddy's balcony at the Gooderham building on Parliament and watch no traffic pass by many Saturday evenings while drinking cocktails.

So... don't listen to statistics, listen to anecdotes from when people get their drink on.

As for the rest of it, you basically proved my point. You can't show, beyond drinking stories, how marginally slowing 1.2% of people down in order to reclaim prime land is committing urban seppuku. If you could argue against that, you would have. Instead all you can do is moan on about planners in the 1920s.

p.s. nobody is calling you loud and obnoxious because you are wrong, they are calling you loud and obnoxious because you are. It's just a coincidence you are also wrong. Al Gore is loud and obnoxious, Milton Friedman is loud and obnoxious, Paul Volcker is loud and obnoxious. Tons of people are loud and obnoxious, I am probably loud and obnoxious.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Use your EYES, man. Don't swallow the pablum. Gee, why is SF building that big, new double decker bridge across the bay? To whisk cyclists across?

they are replacing an existing span so it won't fall down due to an earthquake...

also, they did in fact add cycle lanes where there weren't ones before

also, it's not a double decker bridge

 

[urbanboom]

I think that history has already proven which urban model works better (The Freeway or the Subway).

The year is 1960. Robert Moses has become the self-proclaimed "King" of New York and a quirky woman named Jane Jacobs is writing a book called "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" to oppose him.

There are two cities on the St. Lawrence Seaway one, an economic engine called Detroit, the other is a growing city called Toronto who is about to construct it's second subway line.

Detroit is a booming city, full of factory employment and post WWII growth, Toronto is too to a lesser extent. Detroit has no urban rail BUT has over 20 highways because the car is king. Why would anyone use public transportation? The car is great! Why should we have urban neighbourhoods when we can demolish them, build a freeway and build a new suburb far away from where I work?

Fast forward to 2008.

After the 1960s, Detroit's population shrunk from 1,700,000 people to 900,000 people in 2008. The city's name has become a synonym for crime. The main employer in the region, GM is near bankruptcy. There are very few cultural attractions and gas is at 4$ a gallon. But who cares? We have a great highway system and little traffic! (That's in part because people are moving out.)

Toronto has gone from from 1,000,000 people in the 60s to 2,500,000 million people today. It is still growing and is a major centre of culture, finance, transportation, multiculturalism and diversity. It has neighbourhoods, communities and density as well as a thriving arts scene. There is sprawl, but nowhere near Detroit's size. But.... GASP! ... ... there's traffic!...

Toronto is by no measure a world city like London or New York, but as Detroit proves, highways are no way to support a city's infrastructure. I can't wait for the Gardiner to come down, but there must be a way to replace that vessel of car culture with proper urban infrastructure. That's why a DRL and an Eglinton Subway is more important than ever!