GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[MrGoose]

I do know how P3s work but such things should have been put out as parameters BEFORE it went out to tender much like ML demanding that all potential systems have to be able to handle the standard gauge tracks that it already uses as opposed to allowing a bidder who wants to rip up all the tracks and put in 3rd rail.

If the bid that came in, suggested that we tear up all our existing tracks and put in new non-standard gauge tracks, what makes you think that Metrolinx would choose such a bid?

Not putting out such basic standard such as train types beforehand is truly bizarre. Putting aside the fact for a minute that no other city on the planet is stupid enough not to set such basic requirements to begin with, 7 years?? How in God's name does it take 7 years and counting to pick a bidder?

Where are you getting this from? The ONCORR contract was put out in 2018, and the RFP was put up in 2019. It has been a while, but that time prior was spent developing a business case, identifying necessary work / project scope and other preliminary steps. As for why the ONCORR contract hasn't had a winning bidder selected yet, it takes years to create the large complex engineering plans for a project like this. Huge procurement projects like this take time, which is to be expected, wouldn't want the government to screw this up now would we?

Besides, ONCORR is due to wrap up either this year or next and Metrolinx will finally select a bidder.

 

[crs1026]

^Bear in mind that the bidders are consortiums that may have an equipment vendor as a team member. In that case, it's pretty clear which railcar vendor's product will be chosen if that bidder is selected. The bid preparation process will hopefully integrate the performance capabilities and maintenance needs of the particular brand of rail equipment with the overall bid parameters.

In other words, the railcar equipment may not compete with other brands on their own merits alone. One bidder may have a less attractive railcar in mind (in someone's view, although all choices are likely good ones in the big picture) but could win the bid because of the overall attractiveness of its cost submission and its overall construction/operational competitiveness.

It's an exercise in "How I learned to love the xxxxx"

- Paul

 

[Coolstar]

^Bear in mind that the bidders are consortiums that may have an equipment vendor as a team member. In that case, it's pretty clear which railcar vendor's product will be chosen if that bidder is selected. The bid preparation process will hopefully integrate the performance capabilities and maintenance needs of the particular brand of rail equipment with the overall bid parameters.

In other words, the railcar equipment may not compete with other brands on their own merits alone. One bidder may have a less attractive railcar in mind (in someone's view, although all choices are likely good ones in the big picture) but could win the bid because of the overall attractiveness of its cost submission and its overall construction/operational competitiveness.

It's an exercise in "How I learned to love the xxxxx"

- Paul

Hmm, that's right.

If we're talking EMU-wise, then Alstom and their Coradia product have a pretty good shot since Alstom shows up on both ONxpress and ONcore Transit (Bombardier got bought by Alstom.) Not sure what MTR picks for their vehicles. And the Siemens Desiro or their newest EMU product the Miero.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am talking about kind of trains they will be. For all we know they could just be the current jumbo trains they run now and just stick catenary on them.

Who cares? Serious question. Nobody but train geeks and those involved actually think about this.

This is why Torontonians are not even remotely interested {little alone looking forward to} RER or Go Expansion.

No. Torontonians don't care because:

1) Torontonians generally care more about the TTC than GO.

2) Most people don't know about RER, much less actually understand it.

3) Knowing how trains will look isn't going to change their interest one bit. We have proof from other projects in the city. How much does knowing about the rolling stock on the Ontario Line change interest in that project?

 

[ssiguy2]

But knowing such things is key to the system's viability and ridership potential. The jumbo 12 car trains running now when electrified, will obviously have higher capacity but at the same time be significantly slower due to non-level boarding and hence much longer dwell times. Most people may not care about climbing a couple stairs but people in wheelchairs, the elderly, people with strollers, ang cyclists certainly do. Do people care more about the size of the train or how fast they can get to their destination? Does the general population not give a damn about whether the trains are accessible to all or not?

I don't think people care if the trains are standard catenary or have some battery but they do care about the service provided and much of that will depend upon the types of trains they run. After 7 years this should not be a debate.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

But knowing such things is key to the system's viability and ridership potential. The jumbo 12 car trains running now when electrified, will obviously have higher capacity but at the same time be significantly slower due to non-level boarding and hence much longer dwell times. Most people may not care about climbing a couple stairs but people in wheelchairs, the elderly, people with strollers, ang cyclists certainly do. Do people care more about the size of the train or how fast they can get to their destination? Does the general population not give a damn about whether the trains are accessible to all or not?

I don't think people care if the trains are standard catenary or have some battery but they do care about the service provided and much of that will depend upon the types of trains they run. After 7 years this should not be a debate.

You should know by now that accessibility to people in wheelchairs, the elderly, people with strollers and cyclists simply aren't the key to the system's viability and ridership potential - nor are these the lowest hanging fruit.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

I don't think people care if the trains are standard catenary or have some battery but they do care about the service provided and much of that will depend upon the types of trains they run. After 7 years this should not be a debate.

All brands of train on the table will be accessible. All will offer similar amenities. Other than railfans, the average rider won’t care who made it.

Nobody cares today whether their bus is a Nova, or a Flyer, or an MCI. Or whether their plane is an Airbus or a Boeing. The operators all have their preferences, and they have abundant spreadsheet data comparing makers on fuel efficiency, mean kms between in sevice failure, cost of spare parts, maintainability, etc etc. Even so, at the end of the day the property may still go with the low bidder.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

But knowing such things is key to the system's viability and ridership potential.

No. It isn't. All Metrolinx has to do is specific the required capacity and/or min/max frequencies. Bidders will bid different rolling stock and schedules accordingly. All your other concerns can also be specified. They can specify dwell times, requirement for level boarding, etc. They can even specify the number of doors if they want (though that'd be dumb). This is literally what performance based contracting is about. You don't tell the contractor what to build. You tell them what you want the end state to be. And then specify a contract that rewards how much more they deliver and penalizes how much they fall short, against those goals. A lot of your confusion around this project is because you really don't understand how PBC works.

And of course, the public cares about none of this. It doesn't really impact them right now and it's much to esoteric for most people to understand.

 

[kEiThZ]

Even as a transit enthusiast, I could care less what manufacturer's train arrives, as long as it arrives frequently. GO electrification will work if it operates at high frequency, and integrates with local transit efficiently (both via fares and timetable).

Yep. And in this sense using performance based contracts for projects like this is great. Because Metrolinx can specify exactly that. The frequency, integration and total cost of ownership and operation should be at the top of the list. Rolling stock only needs a few mandatory requirements to ensure compatibility.

 

[mdu]

Based on the diagrams provided in the IBC that have mixed diesel, EMU, and electric loco service, I expect that the current plan is to keep the bilevels at least to their next refurbishment if not their entire service life, replace some of the diesel commuter services with electric locos, and buy EMUs to run the local commuter, daytime and counterpeak services.

 

[kEiThZ]

I do know how P3s work

Performance Based Contracts and P3s are not the same thing. P3s can, but don't necessarily have to be based on a performance based contract.

 

[kEiThZ]

Like, you're really stretching here trying to paint ML as some bad guys.

He's a dude who sits in BC. Likely thinks Metrolinx is just the same as Translink.

If the bid that came in, suggested that we tear up all our existing tracks and put in new non-standard gauge tracks, what makes you think that Metrolinx would choose such a bid?

If that was genuinely the cheapest bid and scored well on a whole bunch of other criteria? They should take it.

The likelihood that any bidder would based their bid around re-gauging tracks is a laughably dumb idea.

 

[ARG1]

He's a dude who sits in BC. Likely thinks Metrolinx is just the same as Translink.



If that was genuinely the cheapest bid and scored well on a whole bunch of other criteria? They should take it.

The likelihood that any bidder would based their bid around re-gauging tracks is a laughably dumb idea.

I mean a TTC Gauge GO Expansion would be pretty funny.

 

[Coolstar]

I mean a TTC Gauge GO Expansion would be pretty funny.

And instead of catenary, electrfy via Third Rail. That way, TTC subway vehicles can finally run on GO tracks. It also mean Ford's dream for a subway to Pickering can finally be realized.

 

[robmausser]

Based on the diagrams provided in the IBC that have mixed diesel, EMU, and electric loco service, I expect that the current plan is to keep the bilevels at least to their next refurbishment if not their entire service life, replace some of the diesel commuter services with electric locos, and buy EMUs to run the local commuter, daytime and counterpeak services.

I think it depends on the route too.

I really think Kitchener/Stouffville between Bramalea and Unionville will be the first to see EMU trains, to satisfy all the RER and Smarttrack stations that will litter the route. All those extra stops will be a problem even with an electric pulled bi level.

I imagine Lakeshore lines will just get dual mode locos at first. They already run close to 15 minutes all day with diesel, will probably be the easiest switch.

Barrie I could see getting just an Electric loco with bi levels first.