AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Hmm, Transdev is basically Veolia - we shall see how it goes.
AoD
AoD
crs1026
Superstar
Thanks - I figured I was missing part of the story.
That sent me looking for the 2016 BCA which put the costs at
Original Capital Cost $1,193M
60-year Renewal Cost $609M including vehicles
Incremental Operating costs $21.3M annually (that's incremental over bus, where the contract is probably absolute cost). If you double that to guesstimate the possible full contracted cost, over 30 years you get $1.2B
So I can account for $3B by rough math. Those costs were always in the picture, so the construction-only figure I had fixated in my brain was probably always unrealistic especially once the decision was made to go DBFOM.
Didn't help that ML and the media and the pols all used the lower figure all along (for obvious reasons - who likes sticker shock?)
A good lesson in looking carefully at quoted figures.
- Paul
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Add cost inflation to that, and I imagine operating costs of buses are more than half that of the LRT.
khaldoon
Active Member
It says the 4.6b figure is adjusted for inflation so I am not sure if you took that into account.
drum118
Superstar
There is a profit line that needs to be consider in any P3 project and it will vary on the time frame of the contract. There is also operation cost to operate the line even though Mississauga is funding most of it, as well maintenance cost.
Don't know who made it to any of the open houses so far, but some boards from today open house at Sq One. The real work on the LRT will not get underway until late 2020, with main work in 2020 is getting the design and construction drawings done, as well starting on the Maintenance complex and yard since the fleet is supposed to start arriving Q4 2022 or early 2023.
By time the fleet arrives, all the current issues with Ottawa and those found on Eglinton and Finch line will have been dealt with by then. Cars will start the 600 km burn-in in 2024 once there is power for the whole line. Opening is in Q4 of 2024 around November. The line is to see about 4-6 weeks of full service operation testing before been open to the public; as well working out any issues along the route; as well with scheduling. Also to give the public and drivers a taste of what is coming by year end. Even before then, cars will be running on the line for testing and training drivers.
Some changes:
Highway 407 Stop remove due to the fact there is no timetable if and when the 407 BRT is up and running. Don't see it for at least 20 years.
Matthews Gate Stop has been relocated to Burnhamthrope, with stations on either side of it at the intersection.
Robert Speck Stop will be at Robert Speck Intersection.
The fly-over the 403 is what I posted sometime ago and going to have an impact on both the southbound lanes of Hurontario and Sq One Dr, as well Sq One Drive that will be at grade. Having a train crossing those roads every 4-5 minutes going to cause problems, especially at Christmas, but more on Boxing Day.
The Port Credit Station is at sidewalk level under the Lakeshore line that will see daylight on the east side. It will be just west of Hurontario and no tunneling is require, other than under the Lakeshore line.
All Hydro poles and wire remain as is or may require some shifting and that's a same.
Steeles Station will be on the south side of Steeles at the intersection, with no tunnel or walkway to the bus Terminal.
Don't know if it will be move to the north side if Brampton decides to keep the line 100% on Main St before real construction gets underway.
Construction:
Between what was told to me over a week ago and on the board, I find that construction is taking place during the winter months as noted on the board vs no work at all. 2020 will see road, sewer, waterline, sidewalks, removal of the median taking place in 2020 and 2021.
I have seen the flow chart for the project, but an high overview at this time until full design drawings are done to to a full break drown and that will be tweak as time goes on. See the boards for time frame and what is taking place for each zone. I somehow miss shooting Brampton as I was sure I shot that board.
I haven't heard if the existing trees in the Median are to be relocated or cut down at this time and a shame if they can't be relocated.
During various time, construction will be scale back around Sq On Mall so not to cause problems for them.
Grass has been brought up in place of concrete and shot down to too much work to maintain it and only good for 8 months. I guess storm water run off is better with concrete than grass, as well the environment? It was noted that grass has been removed from the Eglinton Line now, but don't me to that as it was opposite what I was told a few months ago.
I don't know everything that is plan for the corridor at this time.
Don't know who made it to any of the open houses so far, but some boards from today open house at Sq One. The real work on the LRT will not get underway until late 2020, with main work in 2020 is getting the design and construction drawings done, as well starting on the Maintenance complex and yard since the fleet is supposed to start arriving Q4 2022 or early 2023.
By time the fleet arrives, all the current issues with Ottawa and those found on Eglinton and Finch line will have been dealt with by then. Cars will start the 600 km burn-in in 2024 once there is power for the whole line. Opening is in Q4 of 2024 around November. The line is to see about 4-6 weeks of full service operation testing before been open to the public; as well working out any issues along the route; as well with scheduling. Also to give the public and drivers a taste of what is coming by year end. Even before then, cars will be running on the line for testing and training drivers.
Some changes:
Highway 407 Stop remove due to the fact there is no timetable if and when the 407 BRT is up and running. Don't see it for at least 20 years.
Matthews Gate Stop has been relocated to Burnhamthrope, with stations on either side of it at the intersection.
Robert Speck Stop will be at Robert Speck Intersection.
The fly-over the 403 is what I posted sometime ago and going to have an impact on both the southbound lanes of Hurontario and Sq One Dr, as well Sq One Drive that will be at grade. Having a train crossing those roads every 4-5 minutes going to cause problems, especially at Christmas, but more on Boxing Day.
The Port Credit Station is at sidewalk level under the Lakeshore line that will see daylight on the east side. It will be just west of Hurontario and no tunneling is require, other than under the Lakeshore line.
All Hydro poles and wire remain as is or may require some shifting and that's a same.
Steeles Station will be on the south side of Steeles at the intersection, with no tunnel or walkway to the bus Terminal.
Don't know if it will be move to the north side if Brampton decides to keep the line 100% on Main St before real construction gets underway.
Construction:
Between what was told to me over a week ago and on the board, I find that construction is taking place during the winter months as noted on the board vs no work at all. 2020 will see road, sewer, waterline, sidewalks, removal of the median taking place in 2020 and 2021.
I have seen the flow chart for the project, but an high overview at this time until full design drawings are done to to a full break drown and that will be tweak as time goes on. See the boards for time frame and what is taking place for each zone. I somehow miss shooting Brampton as I was sure I shot that board.
I haven't heard if the existing trees in the Median are to be relocated or cut down at this time and a shame if they can't be relocated.
During various time, construction will be scale back around Sq On Mall so not to cause problems for them.
Grass has been brought up in place of concrete and shot down to too much work to maintain it and only good for 8 months. I guess storm water run off is better with concrete than grass, as well the environment? It was noted that grass has been removed from the Eglinton Line now, but don't me to that as it was opposite what I was told a few months ago.
I don't know everything that is plan for the corridor at this time.
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Raul
New Member
Drum, thanks for posting those shots. just confirm from what you wrote. All the hydro poles are staying as is? Not being replaced or being buried? The city was to be putting extra money to do some upgrades of the stops. I know it was scaled back a bit. Do we know any more details on this. Cant really find any info... BTW the interesting part is going to see how this rathburn/403/hwy 10 in and out is going to work out once built. I really hope they go through it and built a large transit terminal to in compass LRT, Miway & GO. Then it will give more justification to this in and out spaghetti.
Anastasia
Active Member
Thanks for this post Drum, very helpful. I was wondering if you could clarify something for me:
Do you know if they are at least looking at permeable concrete in order to allow for increased infiltration of precipitation? This would seem to be a good opportunity to mitigate potential flooding impacts (Cooksville Creek experienced significant flooding a few years ago, and is the reason that the City is looking to buy up a bunch of properties in the flood risk zone to convert to parkland).
Do you know if they are at least looking at permeable concrete in order to allow for increased infiltration of precipitation? This would seem to be a good opportunity to mitigate potential flooding impacts (Cooksville Creek experienced significant flooding a few years ago, and is the reason that the City is looking to buy up a bunch of properties in the flood risk zone to convert to parkland).
drum118
Superstar
Not adware of this and assuming no. They are rebuilding the Cooksville Creek at Central Parkway now, with more to follow in other locations.
Hydro wires will not be bury. Poles will be replace if they have to be shifted as well how far from current location or need replacing. All the stops other than Sq One, Port Credit and maybe Steeles will upscale, depending what upscale is. Otherwise, stations have been down graded due to cost.
As for the 403 fly-over, it will work for 80% of the route, but the missing 20% coming back onto Hurontario south of the 403 is going to be a major issue almost from day one and a huge mistake not keeping it raise. Its done so to keep the business at Robert Speck happy with a stop there. If both stops were on the south side of Robert Speck, the ramp could start just north of the intersection.
As for a new terminal, wrong location and what is every built, it needs to be built to handle 150,000 riders by 2041, as well making the Transitway under it.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Thanks Drum. So looks like a March 2020 construction start. Only 4 months away!
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Depends upon your definition of "start". Surveying (measurements) has already occurred.
Toronto1834
Active Member
Jeffreys also noted
- municipality wasn’t equipped to understand the concept or purpose
- To never give up on lobbying with politicians and don’t underestimate them
- Always be willing to explain stuff to them. Don't assume they know anything
- She gave a big shout out to Metrolinx for their professionalism on the HMLRT file
- municipality wasn’t equipped to understand the concept or purpose
- To never give up on lobbying with politicians and don’t underestimate them
- Always be willing to explain stuff to them. Don't assume they know anything
- She gave a big shout out to Metrolinx for their professionalism on the HMLRT file
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raptor
Senior Member
I sincerely hope Brampton shall never receive a single penny from any level of government for transit expansion going forward
drum118
Superstar
Start is seeing real construction.
The first thing to take place is widening of Hurontario is some location. but rebuilding the whole road with new water and sewer lines, as well sidewalks. Engineering drawings have already been done for water and sewer lines.
I am assuming engineering work has been done for building a tunnel under the Lakeshore line on the west side of the existing sidewalk.
This is what I recommended in 2006 during the Bill hearing. Need to remove municipality and politicians from the big picture so to not start, stop or interfere with the plan other keeping them informed on what is taking place. If that had happen in the approved Bill, Sheppard and the SRT would be LRT today as well construction well underway building the DRL. Brampton would be see the plan LRT on Main St construction stating in 2020.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I'm really not too sympathetic either. Hot take incoming: If you quantify the actions of Brampton City Council, I would say in relative terms of scale and impact to their respective systems, that Brampton Council have done worse for Brampton Transit than Rob Ford did for Toronto transit.
robmausser
Senior Member
The entire thing was lobbied by some old, out of touch selfish idiots who don't understand how much they have screwed over their grandchildren. I hope they are happy.