Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[TheTigerMaster]

What this routing does show is what a terrible job Jennifer Keesmat did while organizing this.
no consideration for northern extension.
no co federation for West extension.
no consideration for alternate routes that may be less expensive.
no consideration for alternate vehicles which may be better suited for this location.
I believe is was John Tory who took this planning away from the engineers at TTC and gave it to this planning department - so he can shoulder the blame as well.

What? The Relief Line South wasn’t just designed with consideration for a northern extension, it was designed to be built concurrently with the northern extension. Heck, from their discussions I get the sense that they views the northern extension as the most impactful component.

Indeed, it seems that the Ontario Line has been proposed with no regard for a northern extension, since this proposal has zero capacity for future population growth, let alone to handle a northern extension. If the Ontario Line is built, you will never see the subway extended north to Sheppard. Which is a huge deal, since Don Mills was set to become Toronto's second most traveled subway corridor upon completion of the Relief Line North. We lose all that with the Ontario Line.

 

[BurlOak]

What? The Relief Line South wasn’t just designed with consideration for a northern extension, it was designed to be built concurrently with the northern extension. Heck, from their discussions I get the sense that they views the northern extension as the most impactful component.

how many stop were planned between Pape station and Don valley?
how and where to cross valley.?
How would it get through Thorncliffe?
Stopping phase 1 with a 25m deep station in the middle of Pape ave. seemed like a dumb plan. Should have extended it to the brink of the bridge, but they didn't think that far ahead.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

how many stop were planned between Pape station and Don valley?
how and where to cross valley.?
How would it get through Thorncliffe?

You and I both know that detailed planning for Relief Line North was scheduled to begin immediately after completion of detailed planning for the Relief Line South, so lets not play these games.

Stopping phase 1 with a 25m del station in the middle of Pape ave. seemed like a dumb plan. Should have extended it to the brink of the bridge, but they didn't think that far ahead.

What do you think is more likely?

A) Nobody at City Planning thought of extending the line north of Pape

B) They terminated Phase 1 at Pape due to funding constraints out of their control.

C'mon man.

And make no mistake about it, the Relief Line extension north to Sheppard was going to be the single most impactful expansion to our rapid transit network since Line 2 opened. The Ontario Line kills any potential for that extension. So I don't know how the hell you suppose that the Ontario Line (which literally cannot accommodate any future growth) better accommodates future growth than the Relief Line.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Interesting thing to note:

The Star's allusion that 3km of the existing subway corridor plans can be used for the Ontario line needs to die. There is no way any of the current Relief Line design can be used for this project. Based on the fact that this line will be at the surface, it will not be traveling at the depths of the original subway plan. This is the dumbest thing the conservatives could have done because it wastes at least 400 million dollars in planning for a transit line that would have actually served the needs of the corridor adequately.

 

[BurlOak]

Interesting thing to note:

The Star's allusion that 3km of the existing subway corridor plans can be used for the Ontario line needs to die. There is no way any of the current Relief Line design can be used for this project. Based on the fact that this line will be at the surface, it will not be traveling at the depths of the original subway plan. This is the dumbest thing the conservatives could have done because it wastes at least 400 million dollars in planning for a transit line that would have actually served the needs of the corridor adequately.

a shallow subway the takes 60 seconds to reach from street level sounds terrible.
Everyone would prefer multiple sets of escalators, like resending to the lowest level of the science centre.

The soils Info obtained will be used.

 

[BurlOak]

You and I both know that detailed planning for Relief Line North was scheduled to begin immediately after completion of detailed planning for the Relief Line South, so lets not play these games.



What do you think is more likely?

A) Nobody at City Planning thought of extending the line north of Pape

B) They terminated Phase 1 at Pape due to funding constraints out of their control.

C'mon man.

And make no mistake about it, the Relief Line extension north to Sheppard was going to be the single most impactful expansion to our rapid transit network since Line 2 opened. The Ontario Line kills any potential for that extension. So I don't know how the hell you suppose that the Ontario Line (which literally cannot accommodate any future growth) better accommodates future growth than the Relief Line.

now that the subway is elevated, it actually has a chance at making it to Sheppard, compared to if extension was buried.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

now that the subway is elevated, it actually has a chance at making it to Sheppard, compared to if extension was buried.

With what capacity? Where do the riders go??? What system using "smaller trains" is going to handle Day 1 ridership exceeding 20,000 pphpd, plus future population growth? Let me know when you find such a solution.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

With what capacity? Where do the riders go??? What system using "smaller trains" is going to handle Day 1 ridership exceeding 20,000 pphpd, plus future population growth? Let me know when you find such a solution.

And please keep in mind that as the Ontario Line quickly goes over capacity, its ability to relieve Bloor-Yonge is eliminated, which just results in Bloor-Yonge crowding, and lower Yonge Line headways. So a Hail Mary approach isn't going to fly here.

 

[BurlOak]

Odds are very high that this Ontario Line proposal won't get federal funding, and thus not be built.

1. As was mentioned earlier this week, the Provincial government has already positioned themselves to blame Trudeau if the Ontario Line doesn't get built. I believe it was last month where they scheduled a whole press conference to blame the Feds for not providing funding to the line. And keep in mind that the Business Cases Analysis still hadn't been released at that point, so it was literally impossible for the Federal government to contribute funding. That's a very odd move, if you genuinely wanted the funding to come. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this Business Case has some fatal flaws built in, specifically so the proposal cannot receive federal funding.

2. As per my previous post, assuming the government does intend to use smaller trains, capacity will be inadequate on the Ontario Line. It's very easy for the government to justifiably deny fundings on those grounds.

3. This mysterious "new" technology. The fact that the government seems to be proposing some kind of new technology should raise red flags for everyone. Rail is an extremely mature technology, and Toronto and the TTC are far from being the busiest and most crowded cities and metro systems in the world. If the Beijings, Londons and Tokyos of the world haven't found some magical new technology for their systems, its highly unlikely we'll develop anything worthwhile here. I'm expecting this "new" technology to end up being good-old LIM, but if it's indeed something new, it probably isn't getting federal funding, and rightfully so.

4. Most importantly, Ford is extremely unpopular in Ontario, and even more so in Toronto; far more unpopular than Trudeau. It's very easy for Trudeau to say that the plan is garbage, and that the Provincial govenremt is uncooperative, and I'm sure people would eat it up.

If the federal government doesn't provide funding, presumably in the hopes of a friendlier government in three years, it won't be a huge setback, as the Relief Line South was pretty damn close to shovel-ready, while the Ontario Line is essentially starting from zero. We'd likely lose a year at most, relative to a realistic Ontario Line timetable. From a network building perspective, this is likely a favourable outcome, as the Relief Line South + North is a more robust plan, and costs around the same amount of money anyways.

I'll wait for the BCA to make final judgement, but unless concerns over Ontario Line capacity are alleviated, I'll be hoping for the federal government to deny funding to the proposal, in exchange for Relief Line South + North funding three years from now.

It would be quite something if the Wynne liberals are the ones who force the expensive SSE on us, and in the process killed the sensible SRT connected version.
Now, despite Trudeau spreading $B's in Montreal on plans that are not far along - he would snub Toronto and send our construction back another half decade.
Toronto would be in shambles - and somehow, Toronto will continue to vote against her own interest.

 

[Streety McCarface]

a shallow subway the takes 60 seconds to reach from street level sounds terrible.
Everyone would prefer multiple sets of escalators, like resending to the lowest level of the science centre.

The soils Info obtained will be used.

I wouldn't mind the cut and cover proposal if it was actually feasible. This will knock out the 504, 501, 502, and 503 out for a decade. I honestly don't know what would happen to downtown transit if that happened. Nevermind all the utilities and barriers that exist on old downtown streets. Cut and cover made sense for part of the Spadina extension and could make sense on the YNSE, Sheppard extensions, SSE, or eglinton grade separations. Downtown is one area where it's just not feasible, no matter how much I want it to be.

 

[jje1000]

And please keep in mind that as the Ontario Line quickly goes over capacity, its ability to relieve Bloor-Yonge is eliminated, which just results in Bloor-Yonge crowding, and lower Yonge Line headways. So a Hail Mary approach isn't going to fly here.

Time to build the Ontario Line Relief Line then- see you in 2075!

And make no mistake about it, the Relief Line extension north to Sheppard was going to be the single most impactful expansion to our rapid transit network since Line 2 opened. The Ontario Line kills any potential for that extension. So I don't know how the hell you suppose that the Ontario Line (which literally cannot accommodate any future growth) better accommodates future growth than the Relief Line.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions that quickly, IMO.

 

[asher__jo]

Indeed, it seems that the Ontario Line has been proposed with no regard for a northern extension, since this proposal has zero capacity for future population growth, let alone to handle a northern extension. If the Ontario Line is built, you will never see the subway extended north to Sheppard. Which is a huge deal, since Don Mills was set to become Toronto's second most traveled subway corridor upon completion of the Relief Line North. We lose all that with the Ontario Line.

...and it's an excellent way of making the Sheppard subway useful without having to extend it east or west.

 

[Coolstar]

Is is possible to extend the route south to at least Bathurst and Queens Quay so that we could have a connection to Billy Bishop, then westward along Fleet Street to Exhibition?

 

[BurlOak]

I’m estimating the proposed line will move 20k pphpd based on previous ridership estimations

The 2011 TTC Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion study predicted 15k pphpd for a DRL spanning between Dundas West and the Science Centre. And keep in mind that since 2011, both Toronto population growth and job growth have far exceeded official projections, so the 2011 DTRES is likely severely underestimating ridership

The 2015 Yonge Relief Network Study then predicted that a line between Osgoode and Don Mills station would produce 19k pphpd.

Considering those two studies, and Toronto’s growth rapidly exceeding expectations, I think 2031 ridership of 17k to 20k for the Ontario Line is entirely reasonable.

Even if we assume that my estimate was a bit optimistic, we still need to account for future network expansion (that is... unless we’re willing to accept that this thing will permanently terminate at Eglinton). An extension to Sheppard would certainly push the 2031 ridership up to 20,000 pphpd, according to Metrolinx.

In terms of capacity, that means that we’re going to need capacity around 30,000 pphpd to accommodate growth for the decades to come. Which brings me back to my point: the ridership of the Ontario Line is fundamentally incompatible with running smaller trains. The Ontario Line will be overcapacity.

The key stations, Osgoode, Queen, and Pape need to have triple platform Spanish solution.. If the top of my head, stations would be 80m long, with those 3 being 100m. In future, longer trains could be used which would not have all doors open at the typical stations. I expect 30k can be achieved.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The key stations, Osgoode, Queen, and Pape need to have triple platform Spanish solution.. If the top of my head, stations would be 80m long, with those 3 being 100m. In future, longer trains could be used which would not have all doors open at the typical stations. I expect 30k can be achieved.

This doesn't solve the problem of conflicting train movements at crossovers. Nor does it solve the problem of crowding at stations slowing down trains. Remember, more passengers = more time to load and unload, as well as simply more ways for things to go wrong and screw up headways. Remember, on the Yonge Line, we're not even confident that Line 1 can reach its theoretical max of 36,000 pphpd, due to station overcrowding. Using smaller trains to attempt to build a line of 30k pphpd is a fools gamble.