raptor
Senior Member
Same as the Liberal mantra, no?!
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
Uh, no. Liberals were moving too slow, but it was movement.
Compare to what GO accomplished under Liberals from 2003 to 2017 to under Conservatives from 1995 to 2003.
Suddenly we are into cut-backs, route cuts, deferments and cancellations. The momentum that had been built up on infrastructure expansion is slowing.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Well I don't think QP will go with diesel. The only reason they would will be to save the billions on upfront catenary infrastructure costs and if that is their primary concern they will dimply go with Hydrail.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Well Hydrail is a REAL option but one I don't know if they will. My point however is that the longer this scenario plays out, the better the chanced it will be Hydrail.
Metrolinx moves at a glacial speed and this contract will take Metrolinx at LEAST 18 months but could take much longer as ML likes to talk about improvements but is very bureaucratic and lethargic. Even if ML waits til Dec 31/2025 to open the lines, that still means that all 300 km of line, garages, Underpass Park, and storage areas/tracks will need to be done early 2025 to allow for proper testing of the vehicles and systems. Also the longer they take, the more logistical problems will arise as frequency and ridership continues to greatly increase before 2025 thus making construction more difficult.
There is also politics at play. Hydrail, unlike even a single line of the catenary RER, could be plying the rails BEFORE the next election and we know how politicians love a good old fashioned ribbon cutting ceremony right before they have to start pounding the pavement. Ford could easily get 30 hydrogen trains on the rails before the next election which would be a big vote getter in the 905 and suburban 416.
Metrolinx moves at a glacial speed and this contract will take Metrolinx at LEAST 18 months but could take much longer as ML likes to talk about improvements but is very bureaucratic and lethargic. Even if ML waits til Dec 31/2025 to open the lines, that still means that all 300 km of line, garages, Underpass Park, and storage areas/tracks will need to be done early 2025 to allow for proper testing of the vehicles and systems. Also the longer they take, the more logistical problems will arise as frequency and ridership continues to greatly increase before 2025 thus making construction more difficult.
There is also politics at play. Hydrail, unlike even a single line of the catenary RER, could be plying the rails BEFORE the next election and we know how politicians love a good old fashioned ribbon cutting ceremony right before they have to start pounding the pavement. Ford could easily get 30 hydrogen trains on the rails before the next election which would be a big vote getter in the 905 and suburban 416.
Divas S.
Active Member
it's not.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Yes they do as shown in Germany. There have also been orders made from France, Austria, other German regions, and the UK. Alstom and Stadler already produce the trains and Siemens, Japan Railways with Toyota will have their own hydrogen trains developed and ready for sale within 2 years. The UK just did it's first live rail trial of it's new HydroFLEX trains which could be plying hundreds of km of track within just 5 years.
Considering the above, I think it is VERY safe to say that when it comes to urban & regional rail transportation, Toronto can teach Japan, France, Britain, and Germany absolutely nothing. The only think Metrolinx could possibly teach those countries about regional rail is how to build Taj Mahal parking garages.
Considering the above, I think it is VERY safe to say that when it comes to urban & regional rail transportation, Toronto can teach Japan, France, Britain, and Germany absolutely nothing. The only think Metrolinx could possibly teach those countries about regional rail is how to build Taj Mahal parking garages.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Well it looks like Hydrail opponents will get their way and the idea will die but not due to technology or financials but because Canada's posterchild of government largess is back in the news. Bombardier will be cutting 500 jobs at TB and already Ottawa and QP are blaming each other and this being Bombardier, in an election year no less, means that Bombardier is about to get either a big fat government cheque to keep the jobs in TB or a monstrous government contract. That means that Bombardier is going to be the defacto supplier of all RER trains regardless of what the companies vying for the project think. That will permanently take Hydrail out of the picture as Bombardier is one of the world's few major rail suppliers that are not actively developing hydrogen trains.
That however may not be a bad thing because while other manufacturers are betting on hydrogen, Bombardier is betting on battery and it does have it's benefits. Needless to say it is zero emission, has electric de/acceleration, andis 50% quieter than diesel. Of course those things also apply to catenary but batteries have several advantages over catenary:
First, battery trains using the at-station quick charging RailBaar system costs roughly one-sixth the amount to install than does catenary.
Second, they are not subject to extreme weather which can cause wires to snap or fall down which brings all catenary service to an entire line to a scretching halt just when people need transit the most.
Third, they have a lower operational costs due to not having to repair/replace catenary wires.
Forth, the trains are lighter than standard EMU due to not having to carry around the considerable weight of the catenary on-train components.
Fifth, they are very simply to install as they are basically just like installing a big streetlamp at station as opposed to electrifying a 200km route. Logistically this is very important as building so much catenary along already {and increasingly} busy rail corridors is going to be a logistical nightmare.
Sixth, They don't offer the visual pollution that catenary does.
Seventh. The system is easily expandable at very low cost, almost no time, and doesn't require new and endless environmental reviews.
Battery has always been an option but with RER contracts going out in an election year with Bombardier looking for yet another government bailout, it's battery trains are looking like a solid alternative.
That however may not be a bad thing because while other manufacturers are betting on hydrogen, Bombardier is betting on battery and it does have it's benefits. Needless to say it is zero emission, has electric de/acceleration, andis 50% quieter than diesel. Of course those things also apply to catenary but batteries have several advantages over catenary:
First, battery trains using the at-station quick charging RailBaar system costs roughly one-sixth the amount to install than does catenary.
Second, they are not subject to extreme weather which can cause wires to snap or fall down which brings all catenary service to an entire line to a scretching halt just when people need transit the most.
Third, they have a lower operational costs due to not having to repair/replace catenary wires.
Forth, the trains are lighter than standard EMU due to not having to carry around the considerable weight of the catenary on-train components.
Fifth, they are very simply to install as they are basically just like installing a big streetlamp at station as opposed to electrifying a 200km route. Logistically this is very important as building so much catenary along already {and increasingly} busy rail corridors is going to be a logistical nightmare.
Sixth, They don't offer the visual pollution that catenary does.
Seventh. The system is easily expandable at very low cost, almost no time, and doesn't require new and endless environmental reviews.
Battery has always been an option but with RER contracts going out in an election year with Bombardier looking for yet another government bailout, it's battery trains are looking like a solid alternative.
hw621
Senior Member
OK now we have battery on top of hydrail and catenary
cplchanb
Senior Member
Geez honestly it's like talking to someone who's plugging their ears, pretending everything is alright.
drum118
Superstar
This replace the 2 fuel trucks I saw at Aldershot today and a first seeing 2 of them at one time. Could be to deal with 2 trains that had duel power on them with one being tested for service. Saw 673 with 680 on point. Never saw the numbers for the other 2 locomotives as I was hitting the area at Burlington Station as it came in.
Going battery will do away with the ugly look of overhead for electrification the system. You then wouldn't be limited as what would go on X route to make sure you had the right equipment on X train that will travel beyond electrification section. Also what you stated.
You wouldn't have to worry about CN/CP current objection to overhead system on their corridors.
One hope that the government doesn't cave in BBD crying over Thunder Bay lost of work for it and their usual handout for work at a higher cost than an open tender since this is an election year. Lost of a seat or 2 of no contract work for Thunder Bay may or may no have an impact on power of seats at the end of the day. If you can't do things right from the start, you shouldn't be in business and sucking money out of taxpayer pockets that could be use on other things that is more important than 700 jobs. Why is Thunder Bay more important than Oshawa who lost more workers than Thunder Bay???
Hydrogen powered trains is unproven for double deck cars at this time nor a cost to do it in the first place. How long do we wait for this unproven technology to be developed and not put more service on line as plan??
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cplchanb
Senior Member
I havent heard of any battery powered trains in revenue commuter service. Any examples to note? It would seem both are infantile prototype technologies that are over a decade too soon for us
drum118
Superstar
I am following up on what @ssiguy2 said and don't know of any DD trains being battery power tested or built. Again, how long do we wait for unproven technology equipment and still meet 2024 time frame unless its push back?? Battery is the best option to go with, but too early to say so and at what cost??
rbt
Senior Member
GO RER doesn't need battery everywhere but you can significantly reduce the capital cost if you can skip running catenary under a number of bridges and around Union Station. Bombardier MITRAC components (including battery) would be suitable for ~1km gaps in catenary and is deployed in dozens of locations.
I don't see an obvious reason why a North American style EMU couldn't be built up from many of those pieces. Whatever we receive will be a custom vehicle in one way or another.
cplchanb
Senior Member
People tend to always assume that Bombardier Europe products are immediately transferable to NA. Its a whole different set of regs and approvals. Besides, I am highly against betting the future of RER on prototype technology that has had zero revenue service in NA let alone the world. We are in a critical point where we can either make inroads to improving our system or risk delaying to another generation. Catenary is a proven technology that is here for years to come. Save hydro and battery for stub lines or at least when weve established the main core lines.
rbt
Senior Member
A battery bank and electric motor are perfectly transferable between all locations. The vehicle frame/housings are not.