Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[Northern Light]

The problem I see with a SSM-NB service is I don't think there is the potential ridership (I say that not really knowing any numbers - perhaps some bus numbers would be instructive). When you think of nodes, there is not a lot of connection between SMM, Sudbury and NB. They are each centres for their own catchment area but I'm not sure there is a lot of intercity dynamic. They each have air service, good sized health centres, adequate shopping, etc. and their isn't a lot of population along the line. The track would also need significant work to allow reasonable passenger speeds..

I'm not sure what current travel numbers are, but the case for such a service would be this:

1) University. Yes, each Of these three communities, SSM, Sudbury and NB all have them. But Sudbury's is by far the largest and most comprehensive.

Compare the student body at 9,000 and change for Laurentian (Sudbury) to less than 2,000 at Algoma (SSM).

2) Healthcare, SSM has a brand spanking new hospital, but at 289 bed, its a bit over 1/2 the size of Health Science North, which as of next month or so will be only one of these three to have a PET scanner (when it becomes the first in the near-north to have one.

3)Connection to Toronto; any rail connections to Toronto are going to be routed from Sudbury, or NB or both. I don't see any direct connection for SSM; so the connection to these other locations becomes important as they act as transportation hubs for SSM.

That said, I'm not suggesting this is the big priority in terms of a rail investment; but I do support the route (if only by bus) and that it be carefully considered for rail.

 

[Northern Light]

Not trying to dispute your points, I'm just wondering why operating a small train made of 2 or 3 DMUs with no loco is so much more expensive than operating a bus route of similar length.

The cost of track time is probably part of the equation (the lane time for the bus is "free", in the sense that highways are maintained from the general provincial revenue).

Maintenance of the passenger rail stations may be another reason (bus terminals are cheaper, plus the bus can stop at a local coffee shop etc with no terminal at all).

The contention is fine, if the only cost were rolling stock.

The problem is where track is actually missing and would have to be re-laid; or where substantial upgrades would have to be made to produce a reasonable travel time; and/or substantial passing tracks required for reliability.

All of these investment may be justifiable; but in the absence of a frequent, reliable, well-marketed bus connection, its difficult to make the case for the larger expenditures.

Some of the rail routes noted could be restored at less investment, but if not tied into a service network, I fear they would under perform, re killing the service.

As to operating costs, I'm not certain what VIA's crewing rules are, but I would be inclined to suspect they don't go below 2 crew. If that's the case, they will have a heavier operating cost than a bus delivering comparable frequency.

Perhaps @Urban Sky can add to this discussion

 

[Urban Sky]

As to operating costs, I'm not certain what VIA's crewing rules are, but I would be inclined to suspect they don't go below 2 crew. If that's the case, they will have a heavier operating cost than a bus delivering comparable frequency.

Perhaps @Urban Sky can add to this discussion

Sudbury-White River operates with exactly the 2-3 RDCs we are discussing about and requires 2 LEs and 1 SM and I believe that the Kaoham Shuttle is the only heavy rail passenger service in Canada which is crewed with less than 3 members of staff.

As for the likely operating cost, I refer back to the following post:

So, what objections could Transport Canada have against swapping the Canadian onto CP and the "remote service" onto CN? Well, from VIA's Annual Reports and Timetables we can approximate the operating costs per train-km, which yields a range between $24 (Sudbury-White River) and $40 (Winnipeg-Churchill). Unfortunately, Winnipeg-Churchill is the most representative service for what Capreol-Winnipeg might require and extrapolating the $39.67 over 1499 km distance gives you an operating cost of $12.4 million, representing an increase of $8.8 million over the current Sudbury-White River service even when only assuming 2 frequencies year-round:
View attachment 172772
Compiled from: VIA Rail Annual Reports 2016 and 2017, as well as official VIA Rail timetables.
Note: 2016 chosen as reference year for “Winnipeg-Churchill”, given the partial closure between May 2017 and December 2018.

If you multiply the $24 cost figure with the approximately 440 km distance between NB and SSM, it should become obvious that you can’t sell enough tickets to recover any significant share of your operating costs, even though you would probably end up above the abysmal 6.6% cost-recovery rate of Sudbury-White River. In any case, a service which doesn’t attract more than a daily taxpayer-funded bus service is unlikely to be justifiable as “providing intercity rail service at a near-commercial basis”, which is unfortunately the only category of VIA’s three implicit mandates into which this route could fall (given that it does not form part of a transcontinental service or of a service serving communities without year-round road access)...

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not sure what current travel numbers are, but the case for such a service would be this:

1) University. Yes, each Of these three communities, SSM, Sudbury and NB all have them. But Sudbury's is by far the largest and most comprehensive.

Compare the student body at 9,000 and change for Laurentian (Sudbury) to less than 2,000 at Algoma (SSM).

2) Healthcare, SSM has a brand spanking new hospital, but at 289 bed, its a bit over 1/2 the size of Health Science North, which as of next month or so will be only one of these three to have a PET scanner (when it becomes the first in the near-north to have one.

3)Connection to Toronto; any rail connections to Toronto are going to be routed from Sudbury, or NB or both. I don't see any direct connection for SSM; so the connection to these other locations becomes important as they act as transportation hubs for SSM.

That said, I'm not suggesting this is the big priority in terms of a rail investment; but I do support the route (if only by bus) and that it be carefully considered for rail.

I don't disagree. Other than universities, the other community infrastructure is generally directly proportional to the size of the community and its catchment area, although Sudbury Health Sciences is a regional centre for some speciailties (I think it is the regional cancer centre as well). I don't see any of the intercity travel coming even close to justifying passenger rail in the near term. As part of network to southern Ontario, perhaps, but baby steps. Our daughter is in NB and, after they gave up on Costco, have absolutely no reason for the hour+ drive to Sudbury.

 

[dowlingm]

Just a thought, but couldn't Quebec be told that Jonquiere and Senneterre service would henceforth be truncated at Shawinigan or Trois-Rivieres because that's "far enough" for it to meet the requirement...

 

[Urban Sky]

Just a thought, but couldn't Quebec be told that Jonquiere and Senneterre service would henceforth be truncated at Shawinigan or Trois-Rivieres because that's "far enough" for it to meet the requirement...

Sure, but what would be the benefit of doing so?

 

[dowlingm]

Sure, but what would be the benefit of doing so?

Less mileage on the equipment/hours on the employees. Same reason why White River isn't run to and from Toronto and instead is terminated with no direct connection to the national network.

 

[nfitz]

Less mileage on the equipment/hours on the employees. Same reason why White River isn't run to and from Toronto and instead is terminated with no direct connection to the national network.

Extending the Sudbury service to Toronto would double the travel length. There were already facilities there to maintain the equipment - with 4 different railways still serving the city (5 if you include Inco's track), and no shortage of facilities and people who can maintain the equipment. That CP service never ran through from Toronto historically - it went to Ottawa on track that doesn't exist any more. It would make more sense I'd think to extend it the much shorter distance to North Bay than Toronto (where there are also facilities that maintain passenger equipment) - though nothing is fiscally responsible.

That is completely different to the Jonquiere/Senneterre service. It's always run from Montreal. The maintenance and crews are all based in Montreal. Is it really worth VIA moving crews to Shawinigan (I'm not sure why you'd run to Trois-Rivieres - there's not even a good connection to get to that line, you'd have to reverse back and forth through Shawinigan! And you be dead-heading equipment back and forth to Montreal all the time. Plus the distance from Shawinigan to Montreal is trivial, compared to the distance from Montreal to Shawinigan.

What's to be gained? Also look at the ridership, while you cut a small piece of the the run, it's also the piece with the most passengers!

The situation is very different. And the distances involved are very different. Gosh, I've known people who've commuted to Montreal from near Shawinigan (not by train)! I don't think anyone is doing that from Sudbury!

I'd hope that one day that Exo would extend commuter service along that line past Repentigny to L'Assumption and Jolliette - and maybe a train a day to Shawinigan.

For service like White River - there's generally scheduled freight runs. I've never know why not mandating that the freight railways run a couple of passengers cars on these routes wouldn't be a better use of money. And possibly even provide better service!

 

[dowlingm]

Extending the Sudbury service to Toronto would double the travel length. There were already facilities there to maintain the equipment - with 4 different railways still serving the city (5 if you include Inco's track), and no shortage of facilities and people who can maintain the equipment. That CP service never ran through from Toronto historically - it went to Ottawa on track that doesn't exist any more. It would make more sense I'd think to extend it the much shorter distance to North Bay than Toronto (where there are also facilities that maintain passenger equipment) - though nothing is fiscally responsible.

That is completely different to the Jonquiere/Senneterre service. It's always run from Montreal. The maintenance and crews are all based in Montreal. Is it really worth VIA moving crews to Shawinigan (I'm not sure why you'd run to Trois-Rivieres - there's not even a good connection to get to that line, you'd have to reverse back and forth through Shawinigan! And you be dead-heading equipment back and forth to Montreal all the time. Plus the distance from Shawinigan to Montreal is trivial, compared to the distance from Montreal to Shawinigan.

What's to be gained? Also look at the ridership, while you cut a small piece of the the run, it's also the piece with the most passengers!

The White River equipment is maintained in Capreol as I recall, and if the White River service was extended I dare say the Sudbury-Toronto or Sudbury-North Bay piece might also end up as having most passengers. Meanwhile Quebec gets a Shawinigan-Montreal service on the national dime.

I guess it's just frustration on my part that VIA's service to rural communities is largely determined by political considerations and accidents of history rather than an actual national transportation policy which services rail-connected communities in a consistent way.

 

[nfitz]

The White River equipment is maintained in Capreol as I recall, and if the White River service was extended I dare say the Sudbury-Toronto or Sudbury-North Bay piece might also end up as having most passengers. Meanwhile Quebec gets a Shawinigan-Montreal service on the national dime.

So you are suggesting they spend MORE money to remove this service? (not a particularly useful one, as it's not daily, and you can't even travel any return trips in the same day).

(Capreol is near - legally in - Sudbury)

Shawinigan to Montreal is about 2.5 hours (under 2 hours to the Sauve Exo station - just how are VIA trains getting to Central these days - I know we've had this discussion before, and I've forgotten again!) Presumably they'll be terminating at the new "Correspondance A-40 station" when that opens in 2021. Probably a 2-hour travel time

Compare to the Toronto to Sudbury service that used to connect to VIA's 1980s Canadian that ran through White River. That was a 7.5 hour service through Borden (the currernt VIA service to Sudbury Junction is 9 hours!) It's just not comparable.

I guess it's just frustration on my part that VIA's service to rural communities is largely determined by political considerations and accidents of history rather than an actual national transportation policy which services rail-connected communities in a consistent way.

Yeah ... it's very frustrating. And in many ways isn't a national issue, but provincial.

 

[Allandale25]

[TAC Action Alert] Restore the Northlander Survey

 

[lenaitch]

Sudbury-White River and northern Quebec are part of VIA's remote service. It is called "mandated", although I could not find whether that is embedded in legislation or Crown Corp. documents or is at the whim of Cabinet. These services are intended to service communities that lack another connection to the public transportation network (i.e. roads). I imagine the Sudbury-White River run began after the VIA Canadian moved off CP.

 

[Urban Sky]

The White River equipment is maintained in Capreol as I recall [...]

The equipment is maintained and stored overnight in Sudbury, and it would be punitively expensive to do so in Capreol, as deadheading between Capreol and Sudbury before and after every roundtrip would add more than an hour to every LE's shift (with the chance of additional delays from CN mainline traffic), which would make it much more difficult to reach White River from Capreol via Sudbury before they run out of hours. And the key word is "White River equipment", as it's a dedicated fleet with the RDCs, which are not used anywhere else in VIA's network or for that matter: anywhere else in Canada. They are therefore taken care place at the only company in Canada which has expertise in maintaining them and only need to be sent to Toronto or Montreal for major maintenance, which is still a pain as they need to be deadheaded to Capreol and shunted into or out from the Canadian...

Montreal-Jonquierre and Montreal-Senneterre, on the other hand, use a fleet which is shared with the rest of the network, except for the 3 HEP 1 cars (8145-8147) exclusively, which have been equipped with galleys (mini-kitchens, which are normally only found in Business class cars). Therefore, the locomotives and baggage cars (1 F40 and baggage car per train) are shared with the rest of the network and the fact that these trains operate out of Montreal allows to add additional coach cars or even a Skyline car onto the consist, without having to hold that fleet at wherever you want to terminate these services...

For service like White River - there's generally scheduled freight runs. I've never know why not mandating that the freight railways run a couple of passengers cars on these routes wouldn't be a better use of money. And possibly even provide better service!

You can relatively easily operate a local freight train as a mixed train (refer to: Sept-Iles-Schefferville or The Pas-Pukatawagan), but you can absolutely forget it with a transcontinental freight train, as they operate "as required" and not according to any schedule...

I imagine the Sudbury-White River run began after the VIA Canadian moved off CP.

You'd be surprised:
The train dates back to April 1956, when CP cut its Montreal-Vancouver milk run train (Train 17 and 18, total travel time: approximately 120 hours in September 1955) east of Sudbury and west of Fort William (Thunder Bay), operating 3 times weekly instead of daily:

Source: CP April 1956 timetable

The train was subsequently renumbered to 417/418 and in April 1961 cut to Sudbury-White River:

Source: CP April 1961 timetable

The service was grandfathered by VIA Rail and renumbered twice in 1979 (first to 317/318 and then to 185/186):

Source: VIA Rail 1979-10-28 timetable

Trains 185/186 briefly disappeared a few times between 1980 and 1985 (mostly during winter, when the Canadian was deemed a sufficient transportation offer for local needs), but both services were offered year-round for the final five years leading to the 1990-01-15 cuts (with trains 185/186 being the only surviving services on CP routes):

Source: VIA Rail 1989-04-30 timetable

 

[nfitz]

You can relatively easily operate a local freight train as a mixed train (refer to: Sept-Iles-Schefferville or The Pas-Pukatawagan), but you can absolutely forget it with a transcontinental freight train, as they operate "as required" and not according to any schedule...

Great post!

Yeah, I was thinking more the White River to Sudbury type runs, than the Canadian. Stuff like Seneterre to Cochrane - which the tracks is partially gone now - though you could do it in bits through Val D'or, etc.

 

[lenaitch]

Great post!

Yeah, I was thinking more the White River to Sudbury type runs, than the Canadian. Stuff like Seneterre to Cochrane - which the tracks is partially gone now - though you could do it in bits through Val D'or, etc.

But the only freights that run between White River and Sudbury are through freights. Making and breaking up the manifest would play havoc with the the freight's schedule.
The tracks are lifted west of La Sarre QC. Any passenger movement between Cochrane and Seneterre would have to be plugged onto multiple freight movements which likely don't line up. This would, of course, assume there is any demand between the two communities. Such a slow, circuitous route would absolutely make driving faster.