GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[crs1026]

If catenary is the preferred choice then fine, they should get on with it and build the damn thing. The amount of time this has taken just to get figure out the technology, little alone build it, is absurd.

I have NEVER said that catenary was a bad choice. My points have been centered on the huge infrastructure costs and construction times it will take. If Metrolinx thinks those initial costs are justified then go for it. The only thing that I have against catenary that is unique to it is the horrid visual pollution. A catenary corridor makes any line look like an industrial zone from the slums of Calcutta but that is a personal point of view.

Actually, I don’t think you are off base here. I suspect ML and the pols realise that catenary will just about ruin the visual appeal of, say, Sunnyside. And that, as well as cost, sends them looking for Hail Mary solutions like hydrail.

Sorry, folks, there is no silver bullet.

Take careful note of where the Arctic Circle is. And also note, as detailed a number of times prior in this string, that passenger trains are also run over this line:

https://www.scandinavianrail.com/scenicrail/sweden/arctic-circle-train

For some odd reason, batteries and diesel don't do well in that climate...

In fairness, the Norwegian rail line to Bodo, which is also within the Arctic Circle, is diesel and it runs just fine. The difference is volume and length and a few other things.

The issues for the GTA are: ‘pick your poison’ and ‘just spit it out’. If the true vision, due to affordability, is 30 minute headways delivering mostly 905 commuting and a measured regional service, perhaps diesel is just fine. If there is commitment to 15 minute 2WAD and a more intensive station set that creates a true urban ‘surface subway’, we are gonna need catenary...... and that has consequences.

Neither ML nor the pols will come clean about what their true vision and intent is. Instead, they promise Nirvanha but dither because they don’t actually have the cash, and the collateral damage (eg visual pollution from catenary) is too scary.

Just get on with it, or tell us otherwise.

- Paul

 

[Streety McCarface]

Actually, I don’t think you are off base here. I suspect ML and the pols realise that catenary will just about ruin the visual appeal of, say, Sunnyside. And that, as well as cost, sends them looking for Hail Mary solutions like hydrail.

Sorry, folks, there is no silver bullet.



In fairness, the Norwegian rail line to Bodo, which is also within the Arctic Circle, is diesel and it runs just fine. The difference is volume and length and a few other things.

The issues for the GTA are: ‘pick your poison’ and ‘just spit it out’. If the true vision, due to affordability, is 30 minute headways delivering mostly 905 commuting and a measured regional service, perhaps diesel is just fine. If there is commitment to 15 minute 2WAD and a more intensive station set that creates a true urban ‘surface subway’, we are gonna need catenary...... and that has consequences.

Neither ML nor the pols will come clean about what their true vision and intent is. Instead, they promise Nirvanha but dither because they don’t actually have the cash, and the collateral damage (eg visual pollution from catenary) is too scary.

Just get on with it, or tell us otherwise.

- Paul

Catenary doesn't even look bad when it's done properly. Sure, wires can look messy, but at the same time:
1. It's a rail corridor. You can easily block off the visually unappealing wires using sound barriers (and get rid of noise issues as well), plus the existing line arguably looks ugly regardless if there are wires in the way.
2. Messy wires can have their charm and bring character of their own. Think of the downtown streetcars or all the rustbelt interurban systems. Despite the catenary, it provides some form of character to a neighborhood.

Besides, I doubt visual appeal is even that big of a deal, I guarantee most residents will be either more than happy with the new service or, more likely, they'll be happy that diesel emissions will be removed from their neighborhood.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't think visual pollution should be a really big deal as these are current rail corridors anyway, it was just a personal opinion.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Everyone's gonna complain about something. Diesel trains pollute and are noisey, overhead lines are visually unappealing, subways shake the ground. This is the largest urban area in Canada multiple times over, people need to start accepting compromises.

 

[Adjei]

Toronto is full of hydro wires on every street so I don't see why they should be complaining about catenary wires.

 

[dowlingm]

I don't think it is reasonable to compare 600/750DC overhead, as @Streety McCarface did upthread, with the sort of clutter that comes with a 12/25kV AC install. But I wouldn't consider it a showstopper either. We're swapping visual intrusion for less pollution.

 

[ssiguy2]

Everyone's gonna complain about something. Diesel trains pollute and are noisey, overhead lines are visually unappealing, subways shake the ground. This is the largest urban area in Canada multiple times over, people need to start accepting compromises.

I totally agree, there is no such thing as a perfect solution.

As far as electrified RER going ahead under Ford,, I actually think it will. If there was a project that I thought Ford would cancel it was the DRL but it seems that is his first priority even though it goes thru inner city Toronto where he didn't get any seats. Clearly the notion that any transit project in Toronto under Ford will be decided completely on political advantage is false. The issue is that now that Toronto seems to be getting funds it didn't expect, his 905 and suburban 416 support is going to demand that the promises made to them of a 15 minute each-way electrified RER service is kept or there will be a lot of political consequences to pay. Ford is also under a lot of pressure from his suburban MPs who will not tolerate a RER cancellation.

RER maybe slightly scaled back and justifiably it will be the Barrie line that will be at the top of the list as they just got the Spadina Ext and will soon get a 7km Yonge extension so the demand for RER to Aurora has declined precipitacly. Cancelling the Barrie RER section is a big time and money saver and could be easily justified. I think the people of York Region are far more excited for their Yonge extension then they will ever be about RER.

 

[raptor]

I totally agree, there is no such thing as a perfect solution.

As far as electrified RER going ahead under Ford,, I actually think it will. If there was a project that I thought Ford would cancel it was the DRL but it seems that is his first priority even though it goes thru inner city Toronto where he didn't get any seats. Clearly the notion that any transit project in Toronto under Ford will be decided completely on political advantage is false. The issue is that now that Toronto seems to be getting funds it didn't expect, his 905 and suburban 416 support is going to demand that the promises made to them of a 15 minute each-way electrified RER service is kept or there will be a lot of political consequences to pay. Ford is also under a lot of pressure from his suburban MPs who will not tolerate a RER cancellation.

RER maybe slightly scaled back and justifiably it will be the Barrie line that will be at the top of the list as they just got the Spadina Ext and will soon get a 7km Yonge extension so the demand for RER to Aurora has declined precipitacly. Cancelling the Barrie RER section is a big time and money saver and could be easily justified. I think the people of York Region are far more excited for their Yonge extension then they will ever be about RER.

Then why are they moving ahead with the Davenport Diamond grade separation and the Rutherford station project, if they are intending to keep the status quo?

 

[robmausser]

I totally agree, there is no such thing as a perfect solution.

As far as electrified RER going ahead under Ford,, I actually think it will. If there was a project that I thought Ford would cancel it was the DRL but it seems that is his first priority even though it goes thru inner city Toronto where he didn't get any seats. Clearly the notion that any transit project in Toronto under Ford will be decided completely on political advantage is false. The issue is that now that Toronto seems to be getting funds it didn't expect, his 905 and suburban 416 support is going to demand that the promises made to them of a 15 minute each-way electrified RER service is kept or there will be a lot of political consequences to pay. Ford is also under a lot of pressure from his suburban MPs who will not tolerate a RER cancellation.

RER maybe slightly scaled back and justifiably it will be the Barrie line that will be at the top of the list as they just got the Spadina Ext and will soon get a 7km Yonge extension so the demand for RER to Aurora has declined precipitacly. Cancelling the Barrie RER section is a big time and money saver and could be easily justified. I think the people of York Region are far more excited for their Yonge extension then they will ever be about RER.

I hope that if any part of RER is kept its the Bramalea to Unionville section. I've always thought that should be the first section to electrify.

Lakeshore already has 15 minute trains, it can wait. The Bramalea to Unionville with the new stations would transform the city and 905.

 

[steveintoronto]

I don't think it is reasonable to compare 600/750DC overhead, as @Streety McCarface did upthread, with the sort of clutter that comes with a 12/25kV AC install. But I wouldn't consider it a showstopper either. We're swapping visual intrusion for less pollution.

View attachment 182605

The NEC ex-Penn section is a century old.

Modern cat looks nothing like that, or at least doesn't need to:

Here's two variations of the newer designs (there's even a more elegant one that's not only visually less apparent, but higher functioning too that I'll link when I can find a pic)

http://www.railway-technical.com/infrastructure/electric-traction-power.html

 

[crs1026]

^The catenary structures may be benign in many places, especially for single and double track lines, certainly. But the multi-track lines such as the Weston Sub and the Oakville Sub east of Canpa will have more prominent structures. As will those portions with the major feeder lines.

Keep in mind as well that overhead structures such as road bridges and footbridges will be shielded - that will affect the view from many current locations. There will be plenty of new chain link fencing and maybe some solid barriers.

It will not be "awful", but it will be apparent. There may be pushback.

My point was not to discourage electrification, it was to point out that politicians may fear the backlash, even if the impact is justifiable and not that bad. NIMBY's don't have to have valid points to make themselves painful.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

^ When Toronto and Region buries all the overhead street clutter, they may have a point of contention. But even there, European cities and regions that do bury all their electric overhead still find little fault in catenary. Other than tram systems that go wireless through visually sensitive sections (and in many instances the tech has proved faulty) it's not an issue.

It's related in sentiment to York Region's outrage to the concept of the Missing Link running 'through their backyards' but they have no qualms in begging for superhighways to serve them with all the pollution, noise, severed communities and danger of chemical leaks and explosions.

Give me catenary any day over dirty and noisy diesel.

Addendum: Just doing a cursory read of the Metrolinx 2014 report, Pg 82 (of 500 or so pages) to get some technical background of whether and/or how they were planning to do and or run their feeder lines. (They're actually not necessary with readily available provincial xmssn line stations, and the way that 50kV can be split and utilized as both feeder and running catenary, but I digress), but did trip across this.

It's curious, as I thought this was the land that the TTC was or has acquired as new yard space. (ex CP Obico Yard)

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/electrification/appendix/Appendix B Preliminary Environmental Site Assessment (ESA) Reports - Traction Power Facilities & Feeder Routes.pdf

Comments? My intrigue? Is there a quid pro quo ongoing that Metrolinx are quietly passing on electrification? Their business case of 2018 brims with reference to it being 'the thing'...but Metrolinx are more adept at producing fiction novels of late than trainsets.

In all due respect, Metrolinx may be approaching electricity as a 'theoretical concept' more than something tangible?
The Theory of Electricity | Nature

 

[ssiguy2]

When exactly is Metrolinx planning on informing the unwashed masses of their decision?

 

[tayser]

^The catenary structures may be benign in many places, especially for single and double track lines, certainly. But the multi-track lines such as the Weston Sub and the Oakville Sub east of Canpa will have more prominent structures. As will those portions with the major feeder lines.

Keep in mind as well that overhead structures such as road bridges and footbridges will be shielded - that will affect the view from many current locations. There will be plenty of new chain link fencing and maybe some solid barriers.

It will not be "awful", but it will be apparent. There may be pushback.

My point was not to discourage electrification, it was to point out that politicians may fear the backlash, even if the impact is justifiable and not that bad. NIMBY's don't have to have valid points to make themselves painful.

- Paul

The catenary in this pic below was 're-done' circa end of the 90s prior to Federation Square being built (which displaced a massive inner-city rail yard) during 1999/2000 in Melbourne.

Better angle, it's all in the placement(!) to keep people's OCD in check!

Just to the right of those two images, they installed another, flatter style of mast/catenary as well (see video, it's shot from eastern side of Federation Square) - it's the Federal Square East site, everything's done from a railway perspective if they ever deck over and extend Federation Square eastwards.

 

[steveintoronto]

The catenary in this pic below was 're-done' circa end of the 90s prior to Federation Square being built (which displaced a massive inner-city rail yard) during 1999/2000 in Melbourne.

Before someone points out that is 1500 VDC (and thus smaller insulators, albeit heavier contact wire), here's the Adelaide cat, installed just a few years ago, and 25 kVAC, the de-facto int'l standard and what GO keeps referring to in their "Theory of Electrification":

https://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/__data/a...0/Electrification_singlepages_new_Low_Res.pdf

The pdf details different catenary types and the visual factor.

The population of the State of South Australia?
Well under 2M, about the size of Manitoba or Saskatchewan. Ontario has a long way to catch up.