Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[BurlOak]

One concern is that Ontario Line will end up being conceptually undersized, while technically fitting the selected demand predictions.

A few things that I would do for this.

1. Build Spanish Solution at Interchange Stations.
2. Build Interchange Stations longer (assuming a 5-car line is built, design the platform for expansion to 6 or 7 car).
3. Design pocket tracks, cross-overs, etc. to handle longer trains.
4. Provision would be that future trains would be longer than the typical platforms, and at these station, not all door open.

Thus, the extra cost is for only a few interchange stations, and not for every station.

 

[steveintoronto]

61 Questions And Counting
by Steve

 

[christiesplits]

I strongly suspect that we will see a Phase 1 + Phase 2 Ontario Line project, likely due to costs or political realities. I'm guessing the south-of-Danforth segment gets completed first, in line with DoFo's Ontario Place plans.

 

[JSF-1]

I strongly suspect that we will see a Phase 1 + Phase 2 Ontario Line project, likely due to costs or political realities. I suspect the south-of-Danforth segment to be completed first, in line with DoFo's Ontario Place plans.

Multi-phase transit plans; a death knell in Toronto. Baring extrenious circumstances I cannot think of a single multi-phase transit project Toronto has ever successfully completed. Toronto is honestly a City where there is only 1 chance to build something, so it's either done at once or it's never done.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Multi-phase transit plans; a death knell in Toronto. Baring extrenious circumstances I cannot think of a single multi-phase transit project Toronto has ever successfully completed. Toronto is honestly a City where there is only 1 chance to build something, so it's either done at once or it's never done.

On the contrary - all of our existing lines are executed in a multiphase manner. Toronto doesn't have that much trouble extending existing lines - it is starting brand new ones that the city and province is bananas at.

AoD

 

[Kitsune]

61 Questions And Counting
by Steve

Key Point to pull out is that a Technical Briefing for the Ontario line is supposedly coming next week.

 

[steveintoronto]

I strongly suspect that we will see a Phase 1 + Phase 2 Ontario Line project, likely due to costs or political realities. I suspect the south-of-Danforth segment to be completed first, in line with DoFo's Ontario Place plans.

Agreed about the phases, for a number of reasons, not least to 'show' to investors. At least it will be 'planned in part', and I think that will just be a version of the City/TTC Pape to Osgoode segment.

There's real advantage to adopting as much as possible of the TTC's early planning, especially as that relates to EA. (edit to add: )

it is starting brand new ones that the city and province is bananas at.

Absolutely!

Where I think QP should vary is in the train tech used. Not orthodox subway, or metro, but the latest now being adopted in London and some other cities. The grunt work has already been done, and it can use the 5.4m tunnels the TTC has planned, (Great Northern Class 717 as described prior are running in 4.9m tunnels, so QP can press ahead on that, and even though the platforms will be too short, as @BurlOak has stated and others, only open the doors necessary for shorter platforms. It will require longer platforms at major interchanges however, or at least provision for lengthening them.)

QP's real enemy for their clumsy sales attempt is time. And pressing ahead on the DRL as TTC/City planned + would be the sane way to go, save for building it standard gauge to allow GO RER vehicle use as London/Paris et all are doing with hybrid Class 700 series type trains. Bombardier is building very close copies with their Class 345 for Crossrail. The 700 series are specific though in being hybrid running on both third rail and mainline catenary.

The only engineering challenge really is for a maintenance yard for these vehicles, and since ramps at Pape to Line 2 won't be built, returning to the original plan for ramps at Gerrard would make sense to allow shuttling along the Lakeshore Line to a yard at the foot of the Don now underutilized by GO. If QP insists on the bizarre scheme of a bridge at Eastern, that could also serve as a connecting point to a yard just south of there.

Once this line is ready to be proceed, then investors can be invited to bid, and phase 2 will be to extend either or both ends.

 

[JSF-1]

On the contrary - all of our existing lines are executed in a multiphase manner. Toronto doesn't have that much trouble extending existing lines - it is starting brand new ones that the city and province is bananas at.

AoD

I have to disagree there since I would say the Yonge extension to Finch was the only multi-phase project completed. I mean the extension of the Line 2 to Warden/Islington only happened because the Province kicked in extra cash. I don't recall the University part of Line 1 ever being part of the original Yonge Subway plan (although the Queen Subway was and where is it?). On the other hand you can look at the Sheppard Line which was reduced to 2 phases, where is the rest of it? The SRT was a 2 phase project, so wheres the Malvern extension? Wheres the Etobicoke RT? I can say with certainty that the only reason the west extension of the Crosstown is still moving forward is because of SmartTrack. Had that bizarre plan not had the Eglinton section I am certain there would be no discussion of extending the EC beyond Mount Dennis. It seems Multi-phase projects in Toronto die after the first phase unless some miracle happens, be it the Province being generous as seen with Line 2, or a terrible plan comes along making people remember a much better one exists as seen with SmartTrack and the EWLRT.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I have to disagree there since I would say the Yonge extension to Finch was the only multi-phase project completed. I mean the extension of the Line 2 to Warden/Islington only happened because the Province kicked in extra cash. I don't recall the University part of Line 1 ever being part of the original Yonge Subway plan (although the Queen Subway was and where is it?). On the other hand you can look at the Sheppard Line which was reduced to 2 phases, where is the rest of it? The SRT was a 2 phase project, so wheres the Malvern extension? Wheres the Etobicoke RT? I can say with certainty that the only reason the west extension of the Crosstown is still moving forward is because of SmartTrack. Had that bizarre plan not had the Eglinton section I am certain there would be no discussion of extending the EC beyond Mount Dennis. It seems Multi-phase projects in Toronto die after the first phase unless some miracle happens, be it the Province being generous as seen with Line 2, or a terrible plan comes along making people remember a much better one exists as seen with SmartTrack and the EWLRT.

Historically:
Line 1 - Originally Union to Eglinton; northward extension to Finch - projected to Richmond Hill; north/west extension to St, George, followed by extension to Wilson, Downsview then VMC,\

Line 2 - Originally Islington to Warden; extension to Kipling and Kennedy - projected to STC/Sheppard (?)

The fact is - once a terminus exist - the urge to extend it further will sooner or latter happen, whereas a brand new line like DRL (or Eglinton even) took multiple tries to even get off the ground.

AoD

 

[Cobra]

Important motion passed

https://twitter.com/x/status/1118529244857081858

 

[smallspy]

If this entire line can't be up and running by 2027 then it will have NOTHING to do with planning or construction and EVERYTHING to do with Toronto politics. Vancouver's 13 station, 17 km Millenium Line was announced and completely built within 28 months. From Clark's announcement, shovels were in the ground within 8 months and it came in $50 million under budget.

And how many years of engineering were required before getting to the point of construction starting?

Considering that the detailed design actually started in late 2006, the 10 years that it took for the line to open doesn't seem so out-of-line with what happens elsewhere in North America, eh?

Dan

 

[smallspy]

Historically:
Line 2 - Originally Islington to Warden; extension to Kipling and Kennedy - projected to STC/Sheppard (?)

The original stretch of the Bloor-Danforth was to go from St. George to Greenwood - but also included the construction of the University Line. It was only extended to the original terminals - Woodbine and Keele - due to additional Provincial funding. That same funding also accelerated the construction of the extensions to Islington and Warden, which is why they were opened only 2 years later than the original segment.

So yeah, the Yonge Line was certainly not the only phased opening on the system.

Dan

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps all of the 11 Billion that Ford pledged could all go towards the relief line to guarantee that at least this line gets built.

 

[JSF-1]

Perhaps all of the 11 Billion that Ford pledged could all go towards the relief line to guarantee that at least this line gets built.

Not going to happen, they have to spread the money out to multiple projects to try and appease as many people as possible. We've seen this dog and pony show before. Back in the 90's in an effort to appease both North York and York, Metro truncated both the Sheppard Subway, and Eglinton West Subway as a way to ensure both lines got built. So instead of constructing one complete line we were to get 2 half built lines and look how that turned out. I mean the EW Subway to Pearson already had transit planners pulling there hair out, can you imagine if only half of it was built? It would make the half built Sheppard Line look like the pinnacle of urban planning.

 

[christiesplits]

Not going to happen, they have to spread the money out to multiple projects to try and appease as many people as possible. We've seen this dog and pony show before. Back in the 90's in an effort to appease both North York and York, Metro truncated both the Sheppard Subway, and Eglinton West Subway as a way to ensure both lines got built. So instead of constructing one complete line we were to get 2 half built lines and look how that turned out. I mean the EW Subway to Pearson already had transit planners pulling there hair out, can you imagine if only half of it was built? It would make the half built Sheppard Line look like the pinnacle of urban planning.

I was discussing the 'what if' Eglinton West subway was built (and never got built beyond the 90s stub) with a friend and I contended that it would have respectable ridership.