Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
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Neutrino
Senior Member
I can't take the phrase "Fantastic bonanza" seriously.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
So in other words the existing plan to use current subway technology is capable of moving "hundreds of thousands of people" so why would Ford's jaw drop when presented an alternative that does the same except would create an orphan line, orphan trainsets, etc, etc, etc.
We are 50 years behind in building NEEDED transit infrastructure in the GTA. We need to build not come up with newfangled technologies.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
There is nothing particularly new about any of the technologies we have heard around here. I have no issue with orphan trainsets iff they are used extensively - the issues that concerns me are the alignment, the location of the stations - things that really determines the nature of this new "relief line"; and the finer details - who is paying whom, and what are the terms of those arrangements. The necessary details for a truly meaningful assessment that can't be communicated in a few tweets and vaguely worded letters.
AoD
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Don't conflate history. The city had plans for the SRT (conversion to LRT) and it was Ford who threw that all out with his subways subways subway (tm) plan. Now the city is finally working on a DRL (subway!) line and Ford 2.0 wants to toss that out for his unspecified new technology.
Granted the Ford's are not the first to use this strategy of throwing out "the previous people's plan" in favour of beginning a study on their new plan, but let's not forget just how much the Ford's did toss out because it was not "their" plan. They are just as partisan as those who attack them simply because they are Ford's
pman
Senior Member
Isn’t the point of using “newfangled technologies” that:
- They’re only newfangled to Toronto (like the pantograph we’re finally implementing on our trams). For the rest of the world, they’re a standard that’s been in use for quite a while, so procurement and maintenance may be cheaper; and
- They’re more appropriate for surface operation in a regional network not unlike the Paris RER or Sydney Trains.
Northern Light
Superstar
But, the issue remains of a the need for a dedicated maintenance facility en route, if you can't connect to or repurpose the existing site.
That said the rest is TBD; but what I don't want to hear about is anything elevated or trenched in the Downtown or near downtown segments; there may be room to be more creative further out.
I also confess to loathing the perennial Toronto tradition of sinking 10s of millions of dollars (or more) plus countless hours by staff and the public; and then trashing it all for something new.
I will hold out hope that either A) this is all posturing BS or B) that there is a very real, very credible plan almost everyone can get behind, and its tendered and happening within the next 20 months.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
True, they will have to pay for that - but that seems like an expense they won't be able to avoid one way or another. At this point, I am content with a wait and see approach - but iff only meanignful information is forthcoming (instead of hagiographic BS).
My main concern is dramatic shifts in alignment that does not serve the core (e.g. using a Don Valley alignment with stations that barely connect to anything)
AoD
steveintoronto
Superstar
See above. And it's the TTC gauge that's the orphan and highly problematic. If Toronto wants to the world to adopt TTC gauge, then Toronto can pay for it. "Newfangled technologies". Damn right! Why we didn't stick with the side valve engine and went for overhead cams and valves just boggles me...Please read the list of nations and cities posted above using "new fangled" technology like Alstom Metropolis or the many competitors. Note how many are in the second and third world, and how they're generations ahead of us. Welcome to Toronto...
Agreed, but '2.' needs some clarification: Indirectly so. It wasn't QP that has come up with this, it's Metrolinx. Which brings me to Neutrino's point which is far more than just sarcasm:
lol...there's a bunch of those phrases being used. How about "bananas" instead of "bonanza"? Less bone, and high in nutrients. I was wondering last night why we're not hearing from any of the Metrolinx crew on this. Ford is the worst salesman for...well...anything! And Yurek is a bumbler. In the absence of someone intimately equipped to discuss minutiae, we're getting endless hype and prevarication. And where is Lindsay?
At this rate, this is going to go wrong politically. It might be the 'best plan in the world' but it's like having the Principle and VP at a school teaching sex-ed and auto-mechanics combined. Release the clutch! More on that later. I watched Ford on a number of interview segments last night, and I'm still washing out my ears and eyes. It was painful.
You'd stated that yesterday as well as here now, and I'd at first glossed over it, until realizing today that what you mean by "SmartTrack 2" isn't explained.
Could you expand on that? I think I'm now getting your drift, that being (in effect) "RER with closer stops within the City".
Hopkins123
Senior Member
To wit, we'd have a full "subway" from Mount Dennis to McCowan along Eglinton and the SRT corridor nearing completion by now if not for backstabbers and entitled snobs on City Council obstructing what Ford was trying to accomplish. They just couldn't give him a win.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Perhaps it will be like Line 5 with LRTs in tunnels up to Overlea Blvd, and then in the middle of the street all the way from there up to Don Mills and Steeles.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
I don't think Toronto's track gauge is such a problem that it would cost billions to retrofit new subway trains (see the T1) to the track gauge. Just adjust the trucks that the trains ride on. When I speak of newfangled technology I am more specifically referring to other options such as co running with GO RER trains, using hydrogen, etc.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I'm also putting aside bias against Ford et al, although politically, that endures. And to facilitate doing that, I have to keep reminding myself and others that this isn't a Ford Fandangle...it's a Metrolinx manifestation. And oddly, we're hearing nothing directly from them. Quick thought on that: Are they miffed that this has been blabbed to the public prematurely purely for political points? What's clear to me is that without this initiative (whether technically good or not) nothing was going to happen with the status-quo. The City just doesn't have funding for a City plan. On this and many other things.
I suspect the present work done on alignment and route will be retained, albeit some of the curves might have to be of a greater radius and platforms lengthened. The southern "Don Valley alignment" is valuable not as the prime route, but as an adjunct to it, even as single track, as a by-pass for double-decker 'express' from Don Mills south non-stop to Union in peak to allow a more direct connection to other GO routes. Off peak, RER single deck EMUs off of the northern reaches in Markham would take the Relief Line route to the core, with a transfer at Gerrard or the subway to continue to Union if wanted. The line would still head to Osgoode and then later, west to rejoin extant RER corridors.
I do take issue with the assumption that "all the work the City has done so far will be wasted". It doesn't help that the 'engineers' aren't the talking heads on this. I suspect at least half of the preliminary work can and will be used.
What's only being hinted at so far is the 'private investment' aspect. I suspect it's a lot more than just DBFOM. And if so, the claim that 'this will be built much faster' is correct. It could be built in a decade, and some segments up and running in half that time. The template in Canada? REM. It can be done.
steveintoronto
Superstar
You can't be serious...I give you, as an example...The World. TORONTO is the exception, not the other way around.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
NYC DOES NOT run commuter trains on the same tracks as it does it's subways, nor do they go looking for hydrogen or battery powered subway trains for it's system