Restaurant owners report .... but do we have actual data re business?
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steveintoronto
Superstar
I was about to make a point, and then noticed Lucy's post:
I'm very concerned about any and all the figures being touted.
There's a very real danger here, and it's by proclaiming numbers that can't be backed. Make no mistake, this project has to succeed, but I'm flummoxed about how the Mayor and Council are going about doing this.
And cyclists? Gimme a break! How did they compile that figure? And cycling how? Through, to park, to shop, to what?
Either the author of this piece has done a really slack job, or the City is. We all believe this is slowly working (pun intended) but better to put out honest and convincing stats with reference than to just play a PR game.
On one hand, the Mayor makes a point of how valuable this is, and on the other, he fails to take steps to ensure it succeeds.
There's still the small issue of signage and enforcement, and funding the necessary improvements to speed up the painful crawl of the King Car. All the PR in the world isn't going to make it go any faster. I take it a few times a month just to see what difference there is.
There's one huge advantage: You can look out the window as the days go by to get to the end of the line. It remains an excellent example of why the subway continues to be the much faster choice from downtown, or to it. It hurts to write that. It hurts that the City isn't trying harder to change it.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Oh, hell no, I use the Church stop to get to and from The Jersey Giant.
asher__jo
Active Member
Would be great for the pilot to be extended further east to the Don River. West of Bathurst is problematic of course because the Richmond/Adelaide secondary routes ends there. I definitely think that on the remainder of King West and other high-traffic streetcar corridors limited vehicle traffic should be evaluated. Perhaps a loosened version of the King Street Pilot project.
crs1026
Senior Member
Restaurant ownership in Toronto is a fragile undertaking. A restaurant closes in Toronto every day. If only one restaurant has closed on King Street in the past twelve months, that may be a statistically significant result that betters the experience city wide. Maybe it’s a good news story.
These incredibly entitled owners are just pissing and moaning about the growth of the whole restaurant district down there. There are so many good choices. Once upon a time they had “prime location”, because the biggest thing in the area was the theatres. Now, you have this huge residential community to the west, who are walking home from work and have no reason to stop when they get to that one block of King Street. If they don’t stop it’s because of supply, not streetcars.
These guys want to be the next Fran’s or Lindens, The restaurant scene in Toronto doesn’t guarantee anyone that kind of longevity.
- Paul
These incredibly entitled owners are just pissing and moaning about the growth of the whole restaurant district down there. There are so many good choices. Once upon a time they had “prime location”, because the biggest thing in the area was the theatres. Now, you have this huge residential community to the west, who are walking home from work and have no reason to stop when they get to that one block of King Street. If they don’t stop it’s because of supply, not streetcars.
These guys want to be the next Fran’s or Lindens, The restaurant scene in Toronto doesn’t guarantee anyone that kind of longevity.
- Paul
JamesKoole
Active Member
That cycling increase might be at least partially related to the expansion of Bikeshare as well as the absolute terrible state of the cycle track on Adelaide thanks to construction through the core and also on the east side from Jarvis to Parliament.
BurlOak
Senior Member
This was likely a pilot for a reason - because they were not sure what's the best thing to do.
Maybe the next thing to do it allow cars to go straight, but not turn left.
DSC
Superstar
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Steve Munro has just posted his latest exhaustive (and exhausting!) analysis of King. . https://stevemunro.ca/
W. K. Lis
Superstar
If your restaurant business is that concerned about that ONE parking spot in front of your business not being there, it is because of your business, not that ONE parking spot.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Has there been any planning or concepts on how a permanent King Street Right of Way will work? Or is everything still theoretical?
drum118
Superstar
What is a business to do with that one spot where there are 10 other business on either side of them??
If there are 10 parking spot for these business, where do the rest of their business clients park?? How far is that parking spot from their business??
What is the turn over ratio these business?? How long do their clients spend at these business??
How many tables are there for each business??
If you got a good business with good service, food, drinks and so on, you are looking at about an hour per table turn over, which represent about 12 cars a day using that one spot. If you got 10 table of 4 chairs, you can be looking at a need of 120 parking spots if 4 people are in the same car to 360 if 3 of the 4 people come by separate cars. 10 business x 120-360 = 1,200-3,600 parking spots a day.
Math said you lost your mind thinking that one spot is going to save your business, let alone meet your current needs.
10-20% of a good business client and tell want front door service, otherwise they will go elsewhere if they can't get it. The rest are willing to walk a block or so to get to it.
If you remove all the current parking with off street underground parking, you will still see the same business, even those who want front door service since they can be drop off there in the first place. The removal of parking will allow traffic to use that curb lane and allow transit to use the centre lane. All left turns should be from that curb lane to the point they should be ban 100%.
The baning of Left Turns and no traffic in the centre lanes will allow transit to speed a lot faster and move more riders than today best of time ratio.
Watching traffic these days still see far too many drivers disobeying the signs and some of this is caused by traffic following the rear of a streetcar since they can't see the signs in the first place. The signs are useless at nighttime since they are hard to read the small print. Until there are LED signs along with enforcement, not going to improve the quality of service than it is today.
If there are 10 parking spot for these business, where do the rest of their business clients park?? How far is that parking spot from their business??
What is the turn over ratio these business?? How long do their clients spend at these business??
How many tables are there for each business??
If you got a good business with good service, food, drinks and so on, you are looking at about an hour per table turn over, which represent about 12 cars a day using that one spot. If you got 10 table of 4 chairs, you can be looking at a need of 120 parking spots if 4 people are in the same car to 360 if 3 of the 4 people come by separate cars. 10 business x 120-360 = 1,200-3,600 parking spots a day.
Math said you lost your mind thinking that one spot is going to save your business, let alone meet your current needs.
10-20% of a good business client and tell want front door service, otherwise they will go elsewhere if they can't get it. The rest are willing to walk a block or so to get to it.
If you remove all the current parking with off street underground parking, you will still see the same business, even those who want front door service since they can be drop off there in the first place. The removal of parking will allow traffic to use that curb lane and allow transit to use the centre lane. All left turns should be from that curb lane to the point they should be ban 100%.
The baning of Left Turns and no traffic in the centre lanes will allow transit to speed a lot faster and move more riders than today best of time ratio.
Watching traffic these days still see far too many drivers disobeying the signs and some of this is caused by traffic following the rear of a streetcar since they can't see the signs in the first place. The signs are useless at nighttime since they are hard to read the small print. Until there are LED signs along with enforcement, not going to improve the quality of service than it is today.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The Eaton Centre must be empty without any street parking at all.
drum118
Superstar
LOL. Proves my point to a point, since comparing apple to oranges so say the restaurants.
pstogios
Senior Member
It isn’t hard to understand why cyclists like the King Street Pilot.
Many fewer cars mean many fewer obstructions and opportunities for injury. With the state of road safety these days, it’s obvious that when a road largely eliminates cars, cyclists will migrate there. Also, a cyclist can traverse the core of the city using King very quickly when with so many fewer cars.
Now that it’s clear cyclists are heavily using King, the pinch points between the street furniture, streetcars and cyclists should be alleviated when the Pilot goes permanent.
Many fewer cars mean many fewer obstructions and opportunities for injury. With the state of road safety these days, it’s obvious that when a road largely eliminates cars, cyclists will migrate there. Also, a cyclist can traverse the core of the city using King very quickly when with so many fewer cars.
Now that it’s clear cyclists are heavily using King, the pinch points between the street furniture, streetcars and cyclists should be alleviated when the Pilot goes permanent.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Experienced cyclists can, when there is no streetcar behind them, ride between the tracks, at a good speed.