2018 Municipal Election: Toronto Council Races

[toaster29]

Just because Scarborough wants and feels it "deserves" a subway, doesn't mean it makes sense.

The problem is that when any other municipality in the country wants something (new arena, transit, infrastructure), they fight for funding, they approve things they want. That's how municipalities work - you approve things when you 'want' them. How does that not make sense? If Scarborough wants a subway (I'm not so sure the residents there want a 1 stop subway, but who knows) they should be allowed to have it, as long as local politicians are fine with having their residents pay for it. The problem is that people in Rexdale or Downtown shouldn't be paying for it. Local communities should be allowed to plan their own transit priorities - but also pay for them. It's a problem of amalgamation.

 

[Richard White]

The problem is that when any other municipality in the country wants something (new arena, transit, infrastructure), they fight for funding, they approve things they want. That's how municipalities work - you approve things when you 'want' them. How does that not make sense? If Scarborough wants a subway (I'm not so sure the residents there want a 1 stop subway, but who knows) they should be allowed to have it, as long as local politicians are fine with having their residents pay for it. The problem is that people in Rexdale or Downtown shouldn't be paying for it. Local communities should be allowed to plan their own transit priorities - but also pay for them. It's a problem of amalgamation.

Even during the days of Metro Toronto, Metro Council had control over the TTC as it was a matter of joint responsibility. Amalgamation has nothing to do with it as even during the days of the City of Scarborough, all of Metro Toronto covered the costs of the Scarborough RT as part of Metro Council.

The point I am making is that 1 city or 6 nothing has changed regarding who makes the decisions regarding transit. Emergency Services, TTC and other matters of joint concern were dealt with by Metro Council prior to 1998.

 

[zang]

Let's dial this back. Transit Advocate Steve Munro has acknowledged that the case for the Scarborough Subway isn't THAT bad; though he preferred the LRT option.

What we can all reasonably object to is 1-stop version which is absurd and works for no one; misrepresenting data on both sides (I can provide citations if desired); and an entire debate framed more by political machinations that good policy OR good politics.

But it is a line that with the design of Scarborough would be much better served by LRT. The case only exists because a small contingent of transit riders in Scarborough wish to get to the downtown for their jobs, ie; using a medium-range transit system for incredibly long distances. The GO system is for long distances within the region. If politicians truly wanted to serve the needs of those commuters, they'd push the province for unpaid transfers to the TTC on all-day GO service, and not try and make them believe a subway is what will fix things.

And as I said, putting *any* kind of priority on a Scarborough subway means that the Relief Line continues to remain unfunded. Yonge & Bloor has been at dangerously high platform capacities for several years now, and inducing demand for more people from Scarborough to ride a line that intersects with Y&B is damn near reckless. The Relief Line is the only thing that will help that situation out, but self-serving suburban councillors ignore the needs of their own constituents in the name of appealing to their desires. And someone's gonna end up dying because of it.

 

[zang]

The problem is that when any other municipality in the country wants something (new arena, transit, infrastructure), they fight for funding, they approve things they want. That's how municipalities work - you approve things when you 'want' them. How does that not make sense? If Scarborough wants a subway (I'm not so sure the residents there want a 1 stop subway, but who knows) they should be allowed to have it, as long as local politicians are fine with having their residents pay for it. The problem is that people in Rexdale or Downtown shouldn't be paying for it. Local communities should be allowed to plan their own transit priorities - but also pay for them. It's a problem of amalgamation.

While I agree that it's a problem of amalgamation, "wants" don't make for a healthy city. There are a number of suburban councillors who "want" section 37 funding spread around to them, even though it's a localized tool used remedially to balance out growth and densification. Should they have some of that money because they "want" it? Should an area like Hogg's Hollow be getting a share of it, even though the neighbourhood has barely grown since the 1960s? Should densifying areas be forced to live with fewer parks, schools and amenities because Frances Nunziata or Cesar Palacio wants a share?

I will also point out that North York "wanted" a subway on Sheppard, so it got built. A few years later, it was nearly permanently shuttered from underuse. A Sheppard subway ride is *still* being massively subsidized by the rest of the system more than 20 years later.

 

[toaster29]

I think it's interesting, we don't blame Mississauga for wanting a 1.4 Billion + LRT, or vilify people/politicians from Mississauga for pushing for that before downtown Toronto gets a relief line. It's unfortunate that Scarborough "happens" to be in a a city where colossal exponential growth (and transit needs) are occurring in the Downtown core. It's not their "fault". Doesn't mean they shouldn't also have "wants" or push to build rapid transit in their area, too. I don't blame councillor's from that area for pushing for transit in their area, that is what a local representative is supposed to do.

 

[zang]

I think it's interesting, we don't blame Mississauga for wanting a 1.4 Billion + LRT, or vilify people/politicians from Mississauga for pushing for that before downtown Toronto gets a relief line. It's unfortunate that Scarborough "happens" to be in a a city where colossal exponential growth (and transit needs) are occurring in the Downtown core. It's not their "fault". Doesn't mean they shouldn't also have "wants" or push to build rapid transit in their area, too.

There's a big apartment fire on one side of the street. It'll require 5 trucks and 30 men to fight. There's an isolated garden shed on fire a few blocks down. It'll require one fire fighter with an extinguisher to take out. You don't send the 5 trucks and 30 men to the garden shed and ignore the apartment fire.

I don't blame councillor's from that area for pushing for transit in their area, that is what a local representative is supposed to do.

You seem to forget that the Scarborough Subway idea came about because local representatives and a mayor soundly rejected well thought out rapid transit. They eschewed a Toyota Prius in the name of a decked out stretch Cadillac Escalade limo.

They *rejected* transit that made sense. They weren't fighting to give their constituents transit. They were fighting to have exactly the same level of transit as their political rivals.

 

[Filip]

There's a big apartment fire on one side of the street. It'll require 5 trucks and 30 men to fight. There's an isolated garden shed on fire a few blocks down. It'll require one fire fighter with an extinguisher to take out. You don't send the 5 trucks and 30 men to the garden shed and ignore the apartment fire.



You seem to forget that the Scarborough Subway idea came about because local representatives and a mayor soundly rejected well thought out rapid transit. They eschewed a Toyota Prius in the name of a decked out stretch Cadillac Escalade limo.

They *rejected* transit that made sense. They weren't fighting to give their constituents transit. They were fighting to have exactly the same level of transit as their political rivals.

Ugh... Transit City was not the beginning of transit planning in Toronto or Scarborough... People seem to forget that.

Prior to TC, the plan was always to extend the subway into Scarborough. This was even the plan earlier but the city took a safer approach to build an interim solution which was an LRT (turned into the SRT). Now that the SRT is at end of life, I think it makes sense to complete the original plan.

TC was an aberration, and one that is costing us well into the future. I can't wait to see Eglinton opening above capacity on the first day.

 

[steveintoronto]

Ugh... Transit City was not the beginning of transit planning in Toronto or Scarborough... People seem to forget that.

Prior to TC, the plan was always to extend the subway into Scarborough. This was even the plan earlier but the city took a safer approach to build an interim solution which was an LRT (turned into the SRT). Now that the SRT is at end of life, I think it makes sense to complete the original plan.

TC was an aberration, and one that is costing us well into the future. I can't wait to see Eglinton opening above capacity on the first day.

Last time I checked....within the last fifty years...Warden and Kennedy were well within Scarborough, and Victoria Park Station is just inside it.

 

[Filip]

Last time I checked....within the last fifty years...Warden and Kennedy were well within Scarborough, and Victoria Park Station is just inside it.

You and I both know I meant STC - you know, Scarborough's downtown - not its hinterlands.

 

[steveintoronto]

You and I both know I meant STC - you know, Scarborough's downtown - not its hinterlands.

You mean like this?

[...]
No, it wasn’t an underground, high-capacity subway, but it wasn’t a slight—local politicians praised it at the time. Mayor Gus Harris pointed to the RT as evidence that Scarborough was “the city of the future.” The province hoped that the innovative RT technology would become a new standard and, okay, that didn’t turn out quite as planned either. By the 2000s, it was on borrowed time and in need of replacement.

Transit City – 2007
As the 2000s dawned, regional planning, transit planning, and transit expansion came back into style. We got a double-shot of love with David Miller unveiling Transit City and the province agreeing to fully fund the $8.2-billion cost as part of its transit plan, The Big Move.

It envisioned a network of versatile light rail lines crossing the city and providing connections to priority neighbourhoods in the city’s under-serviced inner suburbs. It wasn’t perfect, but if we’re grading on a bell curve, it’s totally the least stupid transit plan in recent history.

Under Transit City, the RT would be rehabilitated and extended to connect with the new Sheppard LRT. The also-new Eglinton (Crosstown) LRT would have seven stations spread over nearly 10 kilometres through Scarborough, while another line would have extended out to Malvern. The best part? Not only was there no cost to Toronto taxpayers, it could all be up and running by 2020!

(Ultimately, in the depths of the recession, the province announced it was delaying a significant part of the funding, but environmental assessments nonetheless proceeded for Sheppard East and Eglinton.)
[...]

https://torontoist.com/2016/10/a-brief-history-of-the-scarborough-subway/

 

[Filip]

You mean like this?

https://torontoist.com/2016/10/a-brief-history-of-the-scarborough-subway/

Am I missing something? This is what I wrote regarding the history of Scarborough subways... But this.. LOL!

Under Transit City, the RT would be rehabilitated and extended to connect with the new Sheppard LRT. The also-new Eglinton (Crosstown) LRT would have seven stations spread over nearly 10 kilometres through Scarborough, while another line would have extended out to Malvern. The best part? Not only was there no cost to Toronto taxpayers, it could all be up and running by 2020!

Do any of you still believe all of TC could have been built for $8.2 billion and at no cost to Toronto taxpayers? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[steveintoronto]

Do any of you still believe all of TC could have been built for $8.2 billion and at no cost to Toronto taxpayers?

You missed your stop. Don't forget about the strawberries...

 

[Filip]

You missed your stop. Don't forget about the strawberries...

What?

 

[zang]

Ugh... Transit City was not the beginning of transit planning in Toronto or Scarborough... People seem to forget that.

And people seem to forget that Transit City was the first major transit plan that came close to being enacted since the 1985's "Network 2011".

Prior to TC, the plan was always to extend the subway into Scarborough. This was even the plan earlier but the city took a safer approach to build an interim solution which was an LRT (turned into the SRT). Now that the SRT is at end of life, I think it makes sense to complete the original plan.

The initial plan of Network 2011, *wasn't* to extend Line 2 further into Scarborough. The Sheppard line was to be built to Victoria Park and stop there, with a later option to extend Line 2 further east. It wasn't anything close to a guarantee. Nor was it a priority.

But you know what was in that plan, and was a priority over any kind of Sheppard Extension? The Relief Line.

 

[zang]

Do any of you still believe all of TC could have been built for $8.2 billion and at no cost to Toronto taxpayers? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

$8.2b? Yes. It could've been done for that in 2007 dollars. At-grade transit is magnitudes cheaper than below-grade in both capital and maintenance costs.