Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[micheal_can]

The grander the station the less people will use it. All the new stations are beautiful and grand. However they are located in mostly sparsely populated areas and will be utterly empty for most of the day. Sure York U will be fairly busy as will Finch West and Pioneer Village during peak hours. Outside of peak and on weekends, these stations will be ghost towns. Especially places like VMC and 407 station and Downsview Park. Downsview Park has no usefulness as a station and the only reason it’s there is to connect with Barrie line trains. It should have been built a lot further south closer to the actual Downsview Park sports centre.

Meanwhile our downtown stations are packed to the brim because they are well used but also because the initial designs were idiotic and they built these core stations on the cheap and did not account for putting in proper mezzanines and platform widths. During rush hour it takes forever to get into or leave the downtown stations because there is usually one stairs and one escalator to facilitate vertical movement. When trains are delayed in afternoon rush the crowds on Yonge Line stations College-Dundas-Queen-King are so large that they are dangerously close to a hazard.

I have always wondered why they make all new stations look like art? Why not reduce the budget, make them simpler, and spend the money on extending the line further?

Sheppard-Yonge is a mess of a station. It was over built with the middle platform for Line 4 that will never be used with a terrible flow design. The vertical circulation is awful for those who want to get from bus terminal to Line 4 - having to go down to Line 1 and then come up to Line 4 platform. I used to use this station all the time and many people were confused on how to get to Line 4. They would often to go the unused westbound platform only to find out there are no trains there. There should have been a simple path built for people to go from bus terminal to Line 4.

In terms of aesthetics, sure the Line 4 station is new and has nice public art. The Line 1 station is hideous and should have been renovated to give it a refreshed look with Line 4.

As for the other stations you mentioned, it’s true they are small and under used. I’d argue that they should never have been built in the first place as they are too close to the other stations. However, the downtown stations on Yonge line between Bloor and Union are tiny and super crowded with limited vertical circulation and need to be expanded. As always though there is no money for such needed projects. It is spent wastefully building huge stations in the suburbs. Except for the terminal, the new Spadina extension stations are hugely overbuilt. Look how huge Downsview Park station is. It has 2 massive buildings that could have been used as valuable developed land. Same with Finch West. There could have been integrated development.

The centre platform was built for the future, when the city finally decides to extend the line west.

 

[BurlOak]

Sheppard-Yonge is a mess of a station. It was over built with the middle platform for Line 4 that will never be used with a terrible flow design. The vertical circulation is awful for those who want to get from bus terminal to Line 4 - having to go down to Line 1 and then come up to Line 4 platform. I used to use this station all the time and many people were confused on how to get to Line 4. They would often to go the unused westbound platform only to find out there are no trains there. There should have been a simple path built for people to go from bus terminal to Line 4.

This is really an indictment of the TTC.
It is obvious that Mel Lastman knew nothing about the Spanish solution - he just wanted an underground train.
The TTC must have been so convinced this line would be carrying 10's of thousands of ppdph that they built this major interchange.
Or they just took the opportunity to over-build because they viewed funding approval as a blank check.

 

[amnesiajune]

I went there and didn't see it. Anyway, I think it may be that GO does not want routes terminating at Highway 407 Station at this time (for whatever reason).

They don't want their passengers to York U to get hit with extra fares. Even with the co-fare arrangement it's still $3.00 more than they currently pay for a round trip.

 

[amnesiajune]

This is really an indictment of the TTC.
It is obvious that Mel Lastman knew nothing about the Spanish solution - he just wanted an underground train.
The TTC must have been so convinced this line would be carrying 10's of thousands of ppdph that they built this major interchange.
Or they just took the opportunity to over-build because they viewed funding approval as a blank check.

Lol... You think Mel Lastman personally designed the subway??

The TTC built with the expectation that the subway would eventually run all the way from Downsview to Scarborough Centre. It was also built with the expectation that pre-amalgamation property tax rates would keep pushing office development into North York and Scarborough like they did in the late-80s and 1990s. The alternative was repeating the mistakes the TTC made at Bloor and Queen - an east-west subway was obviously going to connect at one of the two stations but neither was built with enough capacity to accommodate it. Imagine how much better Bloor-Yonge would work if both levels had been built with three platforms each instead of three platforms in total.

 

[Sandpit]

They don't want their passengers to York U to get hit with extra fares. Even with the co-fare arrangement it's still $3.00 more than they currently pay for a round trip.

407 East buses can serve York U, then continue on to Highway 407 Station.

 

[Leo_Chan]

407 East buses can serve York U, then continue on to Highway 407 Station.

I’d say it’s better to go to 407 Station first and then terminate at York U. Even though it’s less direct and has some back tracking, it’s more consistent and doesn’t require changing the terminus location (yet).

 

[TOareaFan]

I’d say it’s better to go to 407 Station first and then terminate at York U. Even though it’s less direct and has some back tracking, it’s more consistent and doesn’t require changing the terminus location (yet).

I'd say it's better to go only to 407 station.....people headed for York can transfer at Subway........GO can install a "special" tap off machine on the outside of the gates at Pioneer Village and York U stations.....if people have the combo of GO bus to 407 station TTC Tap on to Pioneer Village or York U tap off.....GO refunds the TTC fare on their presto account.

Sure, there will be a transition period of minor confusion but, soon enough, people who regularly use GO to get to York U will soon realize they can save money if they simply tap off "at that special machine over there".

 

[Sandpit]

I'd say it's better to go only to 407 station.....people headed for York can transfer at Subway........GO can install a "special" tap off machine on the outside of the gates at Pioneer Village and York U stations.....if people have the combo of GO bus to 407 station TTC Tap on to Pioneer Village or York U tap off.....GO refunds the TTC fare on their presto account.

Sure, there will be a transition period of minor confusion but, soon enough, people who regularly use GO to get to York U will soon realize they can save money if they simply tap off "at that special machine over there".

But then riders will face an extra transfer. Still, I think this is what will happen eventually. York will want to redo the Commons area eventually (they'll still need the bus loop for emergency/service vehicles as well as their campus shuttles, but they might replace the asphalt with interlocking to better integrate the Commons with the rest of campus)

 

[amnesiajune]

I'd say it's better to go only to 407 station.....people headed for York can transfer at Subway........GO can install a "special" tap off machine on the outside of the gates at Pioneer Village and York U stations.....if people have the combo of GO bus to 407 station TTC Tap on to Pioneer Village or York U tap off.....GO refunds the TTC fare on their presto account.

The TTC seems extremely opposed to any tap-off for some passengers but not others, and it can't be done without the TTC agreeing to it. Metrolinx also wouldn't want to absorb the full cost, since there's virtually no additional cost to the TTC when GO bus passengers take a half-empty subway train for two stops. YRT and Brampton Transit are also likely to piggyback on this and demand their own arrangement so they can axe most service to Richmond Hill and put all their passengers on Viva buses and the subway. And then you have four separate transit systems trying to work out an arrangement for this.

But then riders will face an extra transfer. Still, I think this is what will happen eventually.

The 407 station was designed for the extra transfer to happen. The transfer is an inconvenience but people's trips are going to be almost as fast as they are now with the direct bus to York U.

 

[gweed123]

The route doesn't have enough ridership to justify streetcar service, according to the TTC.

I really think that's a chicken and egg scenario there though. Relatively few people use the Parliament bus because a) it's too infrequent, and b) it doesn't really go anywhere. Have the streetcar route go down Parliament to King and then across King into downtown. You could even potentially have it go back up Spadina, forming a second, wider U around downtown.

 

[TOareaFan]

The TTC seems extremely opposed to any tap-off for some passengers but not others, and it can't be done without the TTC agreeing to it.

I am not suggesting a true "tap off".....the exit gates would operate as now...that is no tap needed approach the gate it will open.....I am suggesting that on the other side of the gates, outside the fare paid zone, a presto machine is available for people to tap and claim their refund.

Metrolinx also wouldn't want to absorb the full cost, since there's virtually no additional cost to the TTC when GO bus passengers take a half-empty subway train for two stops.

and there you have it.....we will never be able to do fare integration....even on a limited 2 stop basis because no one wants to pay for it.

YRT and Brampton Transit are also likely to piggyback on this and demand their own arrangement so they can axe most service to Richmond Hill and put all their passengers on Viva buses and the subway. And then you have four separate transit systems trying to work out an arrangement for this.

In the model I describe, the agency that brings the passenger to the subway is providing the refund....so, yes, if BT and YRT want to also participate then yes by all means program those special presto machines to also acknowledge the BT/YRT to 1 or 2 stop subway ride produces a TTC refund provided by either BT or YRT (whichever delivered the rider).

 

[amnesiajune]

I really think that's a chicken and egg scenario there though. Relatively few people use the Parliament bus because a) it's too infrequent, and b) it doesn't really go anywhere. Have the streetcar route go down Parliament to King and then across King into downtown. You could even potentially have it go back up Spadina, forming a second, wider U around downtown.

The TTC doesn't like those proposals because they're a route management nightmare. A while ago they floated a proposal to have a Spadina - Dundas streetcar (turning around on Church/Richmond/Victoria) but recommended against it because it would disrupt the other two routes.

I am not suggesting a true "tap off".....the exit gates would operate as now...that is no tap needed approach the gate it will open.....I am suggesting that on the other side of the gates, outside the fare paid zone, a presto machine is available for people to tap and claim their refund.

Yeah. The TTC doesn't like this sort of "clutter" in their stations.

We will never be able to do fare integration....even on a limited 2 stop basis because no one wants to pay for it. In the model I describe, the agency that brings the passenger to the subway is providing the refund....so, yes, if BT and YRT want to also participate then yes by all means program those special presto machines to also acknowledge the BT/YRT to 1 or 2 stop subway ride produces a TTC refund provided by either BT or YRT (whichever delivered the rider).

Sure we will. It'll just take time to sort out, just like the new co-fare took time. If there's a special arrangement for subway transfers to York University, there will obviously be some payment to the TTC but it won't be anywhere near the $3.00 fare that's currently charged. And the province can always dangle the possibility of imposing changes (which it can do legislatively) as incentive for transit agencies to work together.

 

[christine]

I really think that's a chicken and egg scenario there though. Relatively few people use the Parliament bus because a) it's too infrequent, and b) it doesn't really go anywhere. Have the streetcar route go down Parliament to King and then across King into downtown. You could even potentially have it go back up Spadina, forming a second, wider U around downtown.

Not only is it infrequent, it's poorly ran. At least once a week I see bunching on this route and considering there's only two vehicles on the entire route thats a pretty amazing feat. Excluding these situations the only time the bus becomes standing room only is when there are events going on at the Distillery District like the Christmas Market.

 

[BurlOak]

Lol... You think Mel Lastman personally designed the subway??

The TTC built with the expectation that the subway would eventually run all the way from Downsview to Scarborough Centre. It was also built with the expectation that pre-amalgamation property tax rates would keep pushing office development into North York and Scarborough like they did in the late-80s and 1990s. The alternative was repeating the mistakes the TTC made at Bloor and Queen - an east-west subway was obviously going to connect at one of the two stations but neither was built with enough capacity to accommodate it. Imagine how much better Bloor-Yonge would work if both levels had been built with three platforms each instead of three platforms in total.

I am not so sure that Y-B was a mistake, and I don't think Y-S will ever be as busy as Y-B.

Like you say, if we had the DRL (or Queen line or whatever you want to call it), there would have been the opportunity to transfer from B-D at Pape, Yonge, St. Georges, Dundas West. How much fewer transfers would there be if the subways were still interlined? The biggest part of the problem was that nothing new ever got built.

So if we are building a DRL now, should the Queen-Yonge or Queen-University station have a centre platform? How much extra will that cost and how much farther can the line extend if the savings from a simple station are put towards extending the line?

How much did it cost to build the centre platform at Y-S to solve a problem that may or may not occur 50 to 100 years in the future. If a simple interchange station were built, could the subway have been extended to Vic Park with the savings? In the next 50 to 100 years, will Y-S really need the centre platform or in that time will there be transfers occurring at Don Mills (to the DRL) and Sheppard West (to the Spadina line).

And yes, Mel Lastman did design the entire thing - I saw his stamp on the drawings.

 

[amnesiajune]

I am not so sure that Y-B was a mistake, and I don't think Y-S will ever be as busy as Y-B.

I think the second half of it is extremely obvious, but Y-S is still an extremely busy station even without the full Sheppard subway.

Like you say, if we had the DRL (or Queen line or whatever you want to call it), there would have been the opportunity to transfer from B-D at Pape, Yonge, St. Georges, Dundas West. How much fewer transfers would there be if the subways were still interlined? The biggest part of the problem was that nothing new ever got built.

The TTC never meant for interlining to be a long term solution. I don't know what the origin of the experiment was, but the wye was built for it to fail and the experiment was designed to ensure that it was a failure. There are some theories that it was actually meant to evaluate the possibility of having Bloor trains turn down onto University and having Danforth trains turn back at St. George.

How much did it cost to build the centre platform at Y-S to solve a problem that may or may not occur 50 to 100 years in the future. If a simple interchange station were built, could the subway have been extended to Vic Park with the savings? In the next 50 to 100 years, will Y-S really need the centre platform or in that time will there be transfers occurring at Don Mills (to the DRL) and Sheppard West (to the Spadina line).

Probably very little relative to the entire project cost. And more importantly, it's virtually nothing compared to the cost of a permanent fix. Even simple changes are costly when they have to be built around a fully-functional subway line.

And yes, Mel Lastman did design the entire thing - I saw his stamp on the drawings.

Seems like North Koreatown has its own Kim Jong-Il.