sixrings
Senior Member
LRT is in the middle of the road in other cities. So much fear mongering on this site recently
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leopetr
Active Member
Middle of the road is safer for pedestrians. Assuming a 5 min frequency, a street median LRT creates a safety refuge the length of the street for pedestrians to cross mid-block.
Avenue
Active Member
Why would pedestrians cross rapid transit tracks apart from designated crossings? Are we expecting them to casually throw themselves onto the tracks in the east portion as well? Rapid transit and pedestrians crossing mid-block are mutually exclusive things to me.
robmausser
Senior Member
It is not safer for people waiting for an LRT, stuck in between cars and trains.
Most cities it is not. It is separated to one side of the roadway.
I lived in Denver and San Diego. Both cities they were off to one side of the roadway in most of the routes (not always of course) and it was much better where they were.
BMO
Senior Member
Look at LRT examples across North America (the successful ones like Portland, Calgary, Edmonton) they aren't in the middle of the road in suburban areas, in fact Los Angeles' is in a trench grade-separated, Portland's is separated in various sections, Calgary's dips under major intersections and is generally grade-separated in many places. It's almost like LRT in the suburbs should be fast and reliable to attract ridership for medium-to-long-distance commutes instead of providing a local service.
Even in Europe, the LRT's holy land, often has LRT's in transit malls or other environments other than in the middle of the street.
crs1026
Superstar
One intersting tid bit to the middle of road vs pedestrian debate. One of the fudges that was done to make the traffic studies looka little more respectable back during the Crosstown EA concerns the timing of the ‘walk’ lights as assumed by the traffic modelling. The City has a standard time allowed to cross a road the size of Eglinton. (It is indeed a wide expanse, enough so that pedestrians need a lot of time to fully cross the street.
When this standard timing was used in the traffic modelling, the results indicated problems both for traffic and for LRTs that would be held up while these long crossings were accomplished.
The consultants doing the traffic modelling consequently shaved the assumptions to not meet the City standard - in other works requiring pedestrians to cross Eglinton faster.
If center median LRT is now claimed to be dangerous to pedestrians, this is another reason to question the traffic data and to believe that at-grade will cause problems for both drivers and LRVs at those key intersections.
This nonstandard assumption is footnoted in the EA documents.
- Paul
When this standard timing was used in the traffic modelling, the results indicated problems both for traffic and for LRTs that would be held up while these long crossings were accomplished.
The consultants doing the traffic modelling consequently shaved the assumptions to not meet the City standard - in other works requiring pedestrians to cross Eglinton faster.
If center median LRT is now claimed to be dangerous to pedestrians, this is another reason to question the traffic data and to believe that at-grade will cause problems for both drivers and LRVs at those key intersections.
This nonstandard assumption is footnoted in the EA documents.
- Paul
MisterF
Senior Member
Yup, unless I'm mistaken that's completely grade separated all the way to MCC. It's amazing that Toronto is ruling out grade separation on Eglinton when that very thing exists a literal stone's throw away on the same street. This just reinforces my belief that planning mass transit should be done by a regional body, not municipal governments. Then maybe we could avoid the disjointed mess that's forming on Eglinton.Its funny all of the suggestions we are giving to do a better job at grade separation from other cities.
We have an example here in Toronto. Want to know something even better, the example exists on EGLINTON AVE.
Its on this forum. It was just completed last week.
Just put an LRT where the busway road is.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Its funny all of the suggestions we are giving to do a better job at grade separation from other cities.
We have an example here in Toronto. Want to know something even better, the example exists on EGLINTON AVE.
Its on this forum. It was just completed last week.
Just put an LRT where the busway road is.
Playing devils advocate here:
Rail vehicles have very different characteristics than buses. LRVs accelerates slower than buses, cant handle steep inclines, and will be at increased risk of derailment when traveling over sections of track that change grade while on a curve. Also, the LRT stations can’t change elevation within the 90+ metre station length. These restrictions likely mean that the type of setup in your photograph would be impossible for Crosstown West.
I’m not saying it is impossible with any certainty. But you can’t assume what works for buses will work with rail vehicles.
robmausser
Senior Member
Absolutely it would require a deeper trench and less curves and inclines. But I don't think that rules it out as being impossible.
Thats why we do studies. I'd be ok with a study concluding it is impossible.
But it wasn't even studied. Just some ridiculously tall overpasses on intersections.
Voltz
Senior Member
That's most likely because they would have used two stage pedestrian crossings.
BMO
Senior Member
so the public realm accessibility improvements are only better for people if they're going to the middle-of-the-road station platform and not if they're planning to cross the street.
Amare
Senior Member
Stephen Holyday just made me do one of the largest eye rolls i've done in a while, but needless to say i'm surprised Tory is actually taking a second look at this as the Crosstown West study was flawed in every imaginable way:
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...cond-look-at-tunnelled-eglinton-west-lrt.html
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...cond-look-at-tunnelled-eglinton-west-lrt.html
Rainforest
Senior Member
That's nice.
I just hope they don't go to the opposite extreme and don't decide to tunnel the whole line, as much cheaper and still effective options exist for this particular corridor.
raptor
Senior Member
Safe to say the project is delayed by another year, at least?
Makes you wonder if this was all planed all along.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Does it need to be that long? I'd say, two months is enough to decide how much grade separation they are willing to fund, if any.
Even if they just do grade separations at Islington (the cheapest) and Martin Grove (the most congested), I'd say the design gets improved.