Union Station LRT Loop Reconfiguration (TTC, Proposed)

[44 North]

What is the underground distance - maybe 700m. Cost for cut-and-cover maybe $150M/km. That's $100M. Also, add maybe $100M per underground station. $300M total seems reasonable.

Why not just go straight up Yonge?

I think less than $100M/station. These would be short plain boxes ~30m long - a third the distance of Crosstown. Not to mention being relatively close to surface, no concourses, in an area that will see complete capital works regardless. Basically akin to Ferry Docks.

With not going up Yonge at QQ I recall there being something about a large diameter pipe close to surface. Not sure its exact location with regards to the street's ROW, but being aware of it I tried to avoid Yonge for a bit, while also providing a platform centralized to the 1-7 Yonge development (this being oriented E-W on the future Harbour extn @ Yonge).

 

[BurlOak]

Off the top of my head.....what about about a "super-PATH" under Bay Street....excavate the street out to the full width, cut and cover, all the way to the building foundations or whatever is under there now. All the way from QQ to Queen Street. There's lots of current PATH down there already, but it could be enlarged. The point being, with retail down there it would generate revenue as well as providing enough space for a realistically sized underground walkway complete with proper moving sidewalk.- Paul

As to superPATH, not without merit - but if you are spending that much money to dig a new tunnel, you might as well expand the LRT platforms.
AoD

Maybe doesn't have to be 100% full width - and LRT and not only pedestrian. Put streetcar down the middle and that still leaves 3m to 4m pedestrians ways on either side (likely a centre wall as well because 15m span is getting a bit big). There could be m connections to adjacent buildings and periodic passages under the tunnel.
I don't know the elevations, but likely the LRT line would go under YUS and continue up and under Bay. With this wider tunnel, there are no real stations needed.

Distance to Queen = 800m @$200m/km = say $200M. Really this should go up to Bloor (or Davenport), so add another 2.5km, or $500M.

The key is cut-and-cover. Cheaper of course, but also much more convenient for pedestrians who can access the trains without descending to the depth of a Sudbury mine. Also, use precast concrete so that the time between "cut" and "cover" is minimized.

 

[dowlingm]

I agree with Steve Munro that the retention of Bremner in the notional plan is not helpful and should be removed. It was always a very curious plan since it had to go past Skydome on surface with all the attendant disruption.

I would be concerned about water infiltration in any Bay tunnel retention scenario.

The notion of any underground construction "superpath or transit tunnel from Queens Quay to Queen" has to explain whether it is worth the effort and expense required to get under the subway and the water-sewer infrastructure on Front, with water infiltration and rock squeeze likely to push up costs significantly.

 

[TOareaFan]

If Colborne Lodge Drive could be converted from the current motor vehicle roadway to pedestrian and streetcar use, why can't Bay Street?

Interesting you ask that....I was in that area just yesterday and noticed how similar it was to Bay Street.

 

[44 North]

The key is cut-and-cover. Cheaper of course, but also much more convenient for pedestrians who can access the trains without descending to the depth of a Sudbury mine. Also, use precast concrete so that the time between "cut" and "cover" is minimized.

I don't care much about any Bay LRT proposal, either surface or underground. But I love the idea of cut and cover, specifically using precast tunnel liners. Believe most of Mtl's system was built this way, and it was done wicked fast. For a Union Loop extension, or any subgrade transit solution south of Front, I think it's not all that feasible. The ground is all watery goop and made up of old garbage. They even found a discarded whale carcass when constructing the 509 underground section. Personally believe we should put streetcars below-grade from Union to Parliament, or elevated. But if underground it would most likely have to be top-down slurry walls.

But yeah elsewhere cut and cover with tunnel liners where feasible, and elevated where logical. We need to cut subway construction costs considerably.

 

[smallspy]

Interesting you ask that....I was in that area just yesterday and noticed how similar it was to Bay Street.

Really? How about the fact that Colbourne Lodge Dr. sees approximately 1/10,000th of the level of auto traffic that Bay St. does?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Use the tunnel as an extension of the Gardiner!!!

 

[TransitBart]

..., with water infiltration and rock squeeze likely to push up costs significantly.

What is rock squeeze?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Interesting you ask that....I was in that area just yesterday and noticed how similar it was to Bay Street.

Really? How about the fact that Colbourne Lodge Dr. sees approximately 1/10,000th of the level of auto traffic that Bay St. does?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Someones sarcasm detector was turned off this evening!

 

[raptor]

Display panels posted:
https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=52ed82c9a7819510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

 

[robmausser]

Display panels posted:
https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=52ed82c9a7819510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

So I wasnt at the meeting, so the display panels are sometimes confusing.

Does this mean that regardless of the connection from Exhibition to the Queensway, the connection to the Dufferin streetcar tracks is still going ahead as planned?

 

[W. K. Lis]

So I wasnt at the meeting, so the display panels are sometimes confusing.

Does this mean that regardless of the connection from Exhibition to the Queensway, the connection to the Dufferin streetcar tracks is still going ahead as planned?

Detour tracks?

 

[pstogios]

Someones sarcasm detector was turned off this evening!

Or, he never misses an opportunity to provide an unnecessarily cruel comment on this messageboard.

 

[drum118]

So I wasnt at the meeting, so the display panels are sometimes confusing.

Does this mean that regardless of the connection from Exhibition to the Queensway, the connection to the Dufferin streetcar tracks is still going ahead as planned?

Yes to the point money will be requested to take drawings to 100% and start building it. Supposed to go into 2018 City Budget.

How much Metrolinx will delay this extension as well screwing it up, depends when and what they want to do with the GO stations as well having better access to both sides.

Want to have tracks ready when the new Dufferin Bridge gets built so all the work on Dufferin is done in one shot.

 

[Kitsune]

What is rock squeeze?

In the last ice age there was a huge ice sheet on top of what is now Toronto. As a result the rock was squished like a sponge. When the ice melted, the pressure on the rocks was released - and is still being released resulting in the ground solely rising. Any tunnels in city have to deal with this - as as soon as pressure is released around these rocks, they expand much more rapidly. Its not unique to Toronto too, parts of Hudson Bay are rising above sea level for example.