VIA Rail

[kEiThZ]

Business demand is already very strong on VIA.

Oh I know. But my point is that, this is a massive opportunity to build on what is already a very successful (from a revenue point of view) offering. I mean we could easily see 1/3 of all pax on the HFR being business class travelers. I hope somebody at VIA takes that into account.

I have always wondered why rail operators don't put in more into their seats, the way airlines do. You don't necessarily need a lie flat like on airlines. But I'd love to see pod style business class seating which gives me real recline room, privacy, a nice large screen to watch what I want, etc. I am thinking of something like this:

https://www.ana.co.jp/wws/us/e/asw_common/serviceinfo/inflight/guide/seat.html?c=f-first_square

Heck, if I was in charge, the contract would be sole source to PriestmanGoode:

Offer something like that, and nobody will fly in the Corridor again.

Service wise, trains have a opportunity to crush airline competition. Weight considerations aren't as big deal. So food could be served on real china. The impact of altitude on taste buds isn't an issue, so they could have more sophisticated offerings. As it stands, VIA's catering is only borderline better than a standard long-haul economy airplane food, with more booze and a chocolate at the end. Another personal pet peeve on both VIA and Air Canada is that they don't do enough to promote Canadian brands and foods. Give me a nice cheese plate served with proper Ontario and Quebec cheeses and wines.

In any event, I recognize that meals are less important on a 3-4 hr ride. So I hope they improve quality and presentation and move to some kind of on-demand system. And I don't mean roaming through the cabin with a cart. I mean something like this:

If there are no screens onboard? Make it app based. Payment through app or screen.

I am always shocked at the lack of innovation in rail service. Not just in Canada by the way. It's remarkable, because even cheap airlines like Norwegian understand how to make this a revenue stream while removing friction from the transaction.

 

[kEiThZ]

Look at the long-distance fares - they are shockingly low compared to VIA.

I am talking about regional service. Like trains inside California. Or just around the Great Lakes.

And yes, I realize they get huge subsidies. But regional services are arguably far more profitable and should require less subsidies.

 

[steveintoronto]

I think they are mutually exclusive, in the sense that a) the railway will require the full width of the right of way, the bridge crossings, etc and b) who wants to cycle next to a busy railway track, when the predecessor was such a quiet ride through the wilderness?

Disagree, and this was discussed in detail a year back when the HFR concept along the ex-O&Q was first raised.

There's more than sufficient room along the RoW, not only that, be aware that for some distance cyclists like myself, and I'm sure many others, a rail line hosting a 'milk run' in the morning and at night, beyond the regular express services, would actually *attract* riders who want to bite off day-trips and or get to other connecting rail trails.

Trans-Canada Trails hosts this study on their website:

US Department of Transportation Rails-with-Trails: Lessons Learned

Federal Highway Administration Literature Review, Current Practices, Conclusions
Federal Railroad Administration
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Federal Transit Administration
http://www.tctontario.ca/library/files/Rails With Trails - Lessons Learned.pdf
http://www.tctontario.ca/library/files/Rails With Trails - Lessons Learned.pdf

Why It Makes Sense to Add Biking and Walking Routes Along Active Rail Lines

• By Tanya Snyder
• Aug 18, 2014
• 25

Despite high train frequency, southeastern Pennsylvania’s Schuylkill River Trail — 60 miles long and about to double in length — provides a stress-free biking and walking experience. All photos from RTC
This post is part of a series featuring stories and research that will be presented at the Pro-Walk/Pro-Bike/Pro-Place conference September 8-11 in Pittsburgh.

You’ve heard of rail-trails — abandoned rail lines that have been turned into multi-use paths for biking and walking. There are more than 21,000 miles of rail-trails across the country, in urban, suburban, and rural areas.

But these trails don’t need to be built on the graves of defunct rail lines. A growing number of them, in fact, are constructed next to active rail lines. In 1996, there were slightly less than 300 miles of these trails. Today there are about 1,400 miles.

[...continues at length...]

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/08/...g-and-walking-routes-along-active-rail-lines/

[...]

• Rails With Trails. There are over 1,400 miles of trails sharing the ROW with active rail lines in the U.S. A good trail provides an attractive and safe alternative to walking on the ballast and ties of the tracks, which is where people often walk when there is no trail available.
  
  
  The Burnham Rail-With-Trail forms part of the trail network in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Bicyclists, pedestrians, and trains share a green corridor through the urban area.
  
  
• Transit Lines. Dedicated ROWs for buses and trams are usually routed to connect numerous destinations along a corridor. In addition to neighborhood access, trails in transit ROWs can improve access to the transit stops.
  
  
  
  
  Bicyclists and pedestrians use the sidewalks along a light rail line in Barcelona. The grass clearly distinguishes the pedestrian area from the track area.
  
  Gallery of Rail Trails.
• [...]

• http://www.pedestrians.org/topics/row.htm

Continues next pane...

 

[nfitz]

I am talking about regional service. Like trains inside California. Or just around the Great Lakes.

Still shockingly cheap. But also, more importantly, often subsidized by individual states. I'm not aware of any provinces providing funding to VIA other than Ontario - and I thought that funding ended years ago. Quebec used to fund some CN and CP passenger services - but I don't think that was ever extended to VIA (and why those services stayed with CN and CP after VIA was created).

If Alberta wanted to fund Calgary to Edmonton services, they are free to do so. But why would they, when the bus is significantly faster.

Even Amtrak doesn't have much in the way of profitable services other than the North East Corridor, which generates about a $half-billion a year. Just some D.C. based services according to this (and look at the cost of some of those trans-cons, and less-used State-subsidized services!

http://reasonrail.blogspot.ca/2014/11/amtrak-routes-by-2014-cost-recovery.html

 

[steveintoronto]

[...]
Featured Documents
[PDF]

New York Avenue Rail-with-Trail Draft Concept Plan
Published on 05/01/15 by Rails-to-Trails Conservancy
Collection: Trail Projects
Tags: Plan, Rail-with-Trail, Urban, Featured


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[PDF]

New York Avenue Rail-with-Trail: Linking Northeast Washington, D.C. (Draft Concept Plan Summary)
Published on 05/01/15 by Rails-to-Trails Conservancy
Collection: Trail Projects
Tags: Plan, Rail-with-Trail, Urban, Featured


View Details →

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[PDF]

America's Rails-with-Trails: Rail-with-Trail List
Published on 06/01/14 by Rails-to-Trails Conservancy
Collection: Trail Planning
Tags: Rail-with-Trail, Featured


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[PDF]

Safe Routes to Everywhere
Published on 02/11/14 by Partnership for Active Transportation
Collection: Policy
Tags: Active Transportation, Policy/Advocacy, Research, Featured


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[PDF]

America's Rails-with-Trails Report
Published on 09/01/13 by Rails-to-Trails Conservancy
Collection: Trail Planning
Tags: Rail-with-Trail, Featured


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[...]

My most sober take on the whole thing is that VIA must have known all along that the right of way had been passed to a bike trail association, and it would have acknowledged already that there would be a duty to make the bike trail whole in some way if it took back the railway line.

I did an intense property deed search on the ex O&Q RoW last year in this string, and found only one section that wasn't assumed by local municipalities/counties, and it's a short stretch owned in some respects by Bell Telephone. The entire corridor not presently held by CP is protected under Provincial law as a utility and transportation corridor, and under federal law by The Railway Act. Trans-Canada Trails and any other users only have a tenancy agreement, and they are fully aware that they might have to share the corridor.

As discovered by US regulators, it is actually in the interests of the rail carrier to have that presence adjacent to the track, even if fully fenced. Vandalism decreases and safety increases markedly.

I just find it typical of Del Duca that he made a pronouncement without fleshing out the fine print. Maybe that's my perverse take on things, or maybe it was a true staff oversight - but I'm enjoying the mental disconnect.

On this point, we fully agree. I've been searching for years for a provincial map (it's their jurisdiction and competence) that shows all the municipally/county sponsored rail trails on one contiguous map. It burned me to no end that one had to Google for each trail (and know the name to Google it) to see if you 'could get there from here'. So now we know that not only have such a map, but have for some time.

So why in hell didn't they post if before now? How incompetent can a government be? Quebec, meantime, not only publishes complete maps, but they own and sponsor them!

More than 4,000 km of long-distance bicycle paths and road routes throughout Quebec are part of the almost-complete Route Verte. Many of the bike paths were developed from abandoned railroads. Road routes are either be along the paved shoulder of highways or on quiet country roads. The project is an initiative of Vélo-Québec and funded by the Quebec government.

Dozens of cycle tours are organized throughout Quebec each year. Foremost among them is Montreal's Tour de l'Ile. In the late 90s the number of participants peaked at about 45,000, making it the world's largest tour. Several other day-long tours are offered by non-profit groups to raise money for charity.

http://www.canadatrails.ca/biking/bike_qc.html

I'll have some detailed comments on the InfraBank shortly. It has yet to be decided if HFR, let alone other VIA funding requests, will be dealt with before the InfraBank is up and running, or as separate cases prior to that. Rolling stock replacement has been pledged to be replaced directly from Gov't funding, ditto for the rolling stock for HFR (ostensibly compatible, thus the dual-mode spec stated), it's the HFR *RoW* that is to be provided by private or shared private investment.

 

[crs1026]

Recall though, that the VIA Rail train service between Calgary and Edmonton, was pushing 5 hours or so using the CP tracks (not sure when service on the CN tracks ended, but it was about 8 hours). How many trains a day ... 1? 2?

http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.ca/2014/04/vias-calgary-edmonton-rdcs-part-1.html

says all that needs to be said about the Edmonton-Calgary RDC. There have been various proposals over the years. Just the cost of bringing the level crossings up to 2017 standards for gates and flashers is considerable, not to mention traffic control needs. Both cities have grown substantially since then, but so has the highway network.

Family members who live out there tell me that they would do anything to avoid some of the winter drives that they make.....but downtown to downtown is not the market they are thinking of, it's to smaller places. But when you get there, you still need a car.

I wonder if there is a 1984 VIA timetable around somewhere, from just before the Conservatives cut both services.

May 1983 - Regina Saskatoon in 3:55 by train versus 2:50 by express bus.

If only we lived in the socialist mecca south of us, that subsidizes passenger transportation - both local and intercity, so much. Not just for rail, but for air.

The wonderful thing about politics is that sometimes, governments are forced to ignore ideology and just do what needs to be done. The last Administration to successfully downsize Amtrak was the Carter administration. Since then, there has been a disfunctional and morale destroying barrage of attempts to kill long distance trains.... but Congress has always relented.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.ca/2014/04/vias-calgary-edmonton-rdcs-part-1.html

says all that needs to be said about the Edmonton-Calgary RDC.

Gosh, what a great page. Haven't seen that before. 3.5 hours - I wonder how often it achieved that. I'd forgotten they only ran to Strathacona - I'd assume that long curve to the old downtown station would have added some time. I thought the last gasp of service was not using RDCs, but a slower conventional service - but there's no indication of that here. But it's been over 30 years since I've looked at a timetable.

The wonderful thing about politics is that sometimes, governments are forced to ignore ideology and just do what needs to be done. The last Administration to successfully downsize Amtrak was the Carter administration. Since then, there has been a disfunctional and morale destroying barrage of attempts to kill long distance trains.... but Congress has always relented.

For better or worse. And I've heard horror stories of the level of service in the trains themselves, compared with VIA.

 

[ssiguy2]

While that video about German train development was quite interesting and certainly some of those ideas such as lighter bodies and easier access leading to less dwell time can become reality, it didn't mention the real issue facing VIA.......propulsion. It didn't show any hydro lines but that doesn't men it's neither electric nor is it diesel. Nearly all rail lines in Europe are electrified and none in Canada save a little section in Montreal.

Even if VIA got rid of the freight interaction problem and built grade separation, HSR as it stands now will be impossible without electrification or a radical new technology.

 

[urbanfan89]

Heck, if I was in charge, the contract would be sole source to PriestmanGoode:

Offer something like that, and nobody will fly in the Corridor again.

Not gonna happen. The revenue per square metre will be much less than even coach class seating. Same reason why all but the snootiest airlines have abolished first class.

Service wise, trains have a opportunity to crush airline competition. Weight considerations aren't as big deal. So food could be served on real china. The impact of altitude on taste buds isn't an issue, so they could have more sophisticated offerings. As it stands, VIA's catering is only borderline better than a standard long-haul economy airplane food, with more booze and a chocolate at the end. Another personal pet peeve on both VIA and Air Canada is that they don't do enough to promote Canadian brands and foods. Give me a nice cheese plate served with proper Ontario and Quebec cheeses and wines.

In any event, I recognize that meals are less important on a 3-4 hr ride. So I hope they improve quality and presentation and move to some kind of on-demand system. And I don't mean roaming through the cabin with a cart. I mean something like this:

If there are no screens onboard? Make it app based. Payment through app or screen.

I am always shocked at the lack of innovation in rail service. Not just in Canada by the way. It's remarkable, because even cheap airlines like Norwegian understand how to make this a revenue stream while removing friction from the transaction.

They could introduce a Foodora-style app combined with Shinkansen-style bento boxes. If you are booked in seat 12A on the 8:00 am train from Toronto to Montreal, you can book a breakfast from a local restaurant by app, and the restaurant will be required to pack the meal in a standardized bento box. Via Rail could require restaurants to be owner-operated (as *only* allowing Canadian brands will definitely run afoul of trade agreements), and charge a flat fee to the customer given the ultra-low margins in the catering business. And if the train is scheduled to stop at, say, Kingston at 9:00 am, you can order the meal delivered to your train at Kingston instead. On-board catering can be reduced to a single vending machine, which will cut costs.

 

[crs1026]

Not gonna happen. The revenue per square metre will be much less than even coach class seating. Same reason why all but the snootiest airlines have abolished first class.


They could introduce a Foodora-style app combined with Shinkansen-style bento boxes. If you are booked in seat 12A on the 8:00 am train from Toronto to Montreal, you can book a breakfast from a local restaurant by app, and the restaurant will be required to pack the meal in a standardized bento box. Via Rail could require restaurants to be owner-operated (as *only* allowing Canadian brands will definitely run afoul of trade agreements), and charge a flat fee to the customer given the ultra-low margins in the catering business. And if the train is scheduled to stop at, say, Kingston at 9:00 am, you can order the meal delivered to your train at Kingston instead. On-board catering can be reduced to a single vending machine, which will cut costs.

Should HFR ever get moving, VIA should definitely revisit its OBS format, in particular the serve at seat premise in coach. Just about everybody else in the HxR business uses good old fashioned cafe cars. We may see a train technology where there are wide diaphragms and no vestibule doors, just like the TR subway cars. VIA prefers to imprison people in their assigned coach, which wastes one of the nicest amenities and competitive advantages in rail travel..... the opportunity to move around and stretch.

Virgin does a pretty nice job of first class meals with on board ordering, at your seat service, and a galley. I wonder how they justify the square footage.

VIA's existing first class is pretty snazzy already. First class overseas is pretty much the same all over, and the seats per square foot are mostly lower than VIA due to more luggage space and larger washrooms.

VIA's New trains should also have technology that addresses carfinding and seat finding. That's table stakes on other major operators. It is speed independent. I question the need for all the boarding pass checking that VIA does. With high platforms, automatic doors, electronic information boards, and the right on board electronics (some equipment shows passenger name over their reserved seat, and this clears to 'AVAILABLE' when your stop is reached) people should be able to find their platform, car door, and seat without all the human barriers.

Lastly, Transport Canada has to be reined in. Regs for things like luggage stowage restraints might make sense on today's Guelph Sub trackage but would be laughed at in just about any HxR jurisdiction out there today. If track quality improves, PTC is installed, and derailment potential is reduced, we don't need to close the barn door for the last few decades' experience.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Lastly, Transport Canada has to be reined in. Regs for things like luggage stowage restraints might make sense on today's Guelph Sub trackage but would be laughed at in just about any HxR jurisdiction out there today. If track quality improves, PTC is installed, and derailment potential is reduced, we don't need to close the barn door for the last few decades' experience.

Transport Canada alone is a massive factor in keeping Cdn passenger rail stuck in the past. Without preaching to the converted here in a tirade on that, (signalling, train-control, crashworthiness approach, coupler technology, etc, etc) one has to wonder if the possible/probable Siemens/Bombardier rail division merger might just end-up forcing TC to move into the modern era by just passing on bidding on Cdn rolling stock due to the problems of adapting today's technology (tomorrow's in some cases) to TC's backward and clumsy one? (I can think of no better example than the TTC's streetcar order, not that it's a TC issue, and not to excuse BBD by any means, but it's illustrative of what happens when you don't buy "off-the-shelf" in many cases)

Can you imagine building cars and road transportation with regulations fifty years or more out of date? Or aircraft?

I have a well-founded hope that the InfraBank will not only bring a much-needed rational business approach to building infrastructure, but also impressing on the Government the need for modern approach to regulation:
"We (Investment Capital) are eager to fund this project with a large sum of capital, we have deep-enough pockets to do this right the first-time, and see a steady and dependable benefit for not only us, but everyone concerned, but that is contingent on our being able to use projects we've built in other nations as business and engineering models to gauge how to effectively fund and build this, and that means 'off-the-shelf' tried and trued technology that meets international specs with all the kinks already worked out, and production lines already extant. Either you modernize your regulations, or we will consider this project not apt for our participation."

The one and only reason TC can live in the past is because they're not held to account! Once projects that would normally be eagerly funded aren't, perhaps the Masters in Parliament will get the message?

 

[kEiThZ]

Not gonna happen. The revenue per square metre will be much less than even coach class seating. Same reason why all but the snootiest airlines have abolished first class.

First off. Airlines haven't abolished First Class. Just some carriers have. Most major carriers still have First on high yield routes. And in some cases, First is approaching something like having a private jet. Second, international business class on most airlines is substantially better than even first class 20 years ago. And the new trend of Premium Economy is seat and service as good as regional business class (sometimes better).

Next, real estate is nowhere as expensive in trains as it is on planes. The weight considerations aren't an issue. Fuel burn on an extra car is marginal enough too not be a concern. Especially if electric. And the cars themselves are cheaper and last a decade longer than most airliners. Spread out the cost of a club car between 30 years of two following coaches of business passengers. It'll be peanuts.

But even if they don't have done fancy club car, I wish they had a better seat. VIA One seats aren't really any better than their economy service. Product differentiation is horrendous. I'm paying $50-$100 more for two drinks and a $20 meal? Only a government bureaucrat could design service differentiation like that.

Economy should be aimed at competing with bus travel. Business should be aimed at competing with airlines. And both should offer more than their competitors. More space, comfort and connectivity. Without any of the security hassles of air travel (though admittedly some might be necessary on HFR or HSR lines).

My point is that this should be seen as an opportunity to be innovative and to leapfrog. Not just catch up to what everyone else is doing. This is after all, the only major long distance rail investment any of us will see in our lifetimes in Canada.

 

[kEiThZ]

VIA's existing first class is pretty snazzy already. First class overseas is pretty much the same all over, and the seats per square foot are mostly lower than VIA due to more luggage space and larger washrooms.

Trains are also much nicer elsewhere. So, dunno if that makes differentiation less relevant. VIA One doesn't seem snazzy to me. Their lounges are basic compared to something like Air Canada. You don't get lounge access unless you buy VIA One which really reduces the value of their loyalty program. But more to the point, I don't see the "snazzy". It's the same seat as economy, no? Same width. Same seat pitch. Slightly better upholstering and a curtain for the window. Luggage allowance isn't higher, if I'm not mistaken. The bathrooms are also fairly standard. Whereas, most airlines have an improved bathroomassenger ratio for business and nicer bathrooms (on longhaul at least). And that's before we get into the lack of things like entertainment screens.

I get the temptation to compare this to trains in Europe. But VIA's competition in the Corridor for business class is Air Canada, Westjet and Porter (and mostly Air Canada). You want those lucrative passengers to give up their elite flyer status? You better bring your "A" game.

Admittedly, this is all aspirational on my part. I want to see VIA's HFR club AC like a baby seal because I think transportation is absolutely essential to our economy and the airlines have gotten a chokehold with their oligopoly pricing.

VIA's New trains should also have technology that addresses carfinding and seat finding. That's table stakes on other major operators. It is speed independent. I question the need for all the boarding pass checking that VIA does. With high platforms, automatic doors, electronic information boards, and the right on board electronics (some equipment shows passenger name over their reserved seat, and this clears to 'AVAILABLE' when your stop is reached) people should be able to find their platform, car door, and seat without all the human barriers.

Absolutely true. The stickers on top of the seats are ugly. But then, so are the 1980s luggage racks they stick them on and 1990s airline seats. I would love to see what you propose.

 

[rbt]

First off. Airlines haven't abolished First Class. Just some carriers have. Most major carriers still have First on high yield routes. And in some cases, First is approaching something like having a private jet. Second, international business class on most airlines is substantially better than even first class 20 years ago. And the new trend of Premium Economy is seat and service as good as regional business class (sometimes better).

You're thinking Business Class perhaps? First Class is increasingly rare on airlines. Most of the big names transitioned those seats to Business Class some time ago because those who used to fly First Class now tend to charter a jet.

 

[crs1026]

It's the same seat as economy, no? Same width. Same seat pitch. Slightly better upholstering and a curtain for the window. Luggage allowance isn't higher, if I'm not mistaken. The bathrooms are also fairly standard. Whereas, most airlines have an improved bathroomassenger ratio for business and nicer bathrooms (on longhaul at least). And that's before we get into the lack of things like entertainment screens.

The new interiors, and the Ren interiors, are nicer and closer to European or Asian "normal" for first class. ie - 2-and-1 seating, good tables, power, fully functional wifi, etc. Even Acela meets that standard. There is huge potential for VIA to make first class rides "workable" time as it is elsewhere.

Yeah, the old LRC seats suck. Always have.

- Paul