Transit City Details

[rpgr]

Ugh, LRT for Shepperd East built within current road medians? What's the point of that? The 190 from STC to Fairview mall couldn't possibly be that much slower than a streetcar. Everyone around there knows that traffic arteries come up at Vic Park and to a lesser extent Kennedy. Even if they extended the subway to just a little past Vic Park, by-passing the traffic there, it would greatly improve the overall service than adding all those street cars.

I swear, who the heck plans this crap? If they paid just one or two people to ride all the routes from start to finish (taping on a camcorder) during rush hour they could easily see where the problem areas lie rather than trying for the one-size fits all lazy solution (all in less than a year).

This isn't a solution at all, these streetcars are just an excuse to make the TTC look pretty rather than making an educated solution to transit problems.

 

[unimaginative2]

If the TTC stopped and look at light rail that has been built in Europe and North America in the past decade or two, running in the street (even with a ROW) is something that's only done where there are no other alternatives.

Exactly! Toronto is the only city in the world with this road-median-only planning requirement. The issue for other people who've posted is that these plans are not about speed, as any regular reader of Steve Munro would know. They're about "accessibility", i.e. walking distance to a stop. According to Steve Munro, the intellectual driving force behind the Transit City plan (he even claims to have named it), people on Sheppard are very upset about the subway because it means a longer walk to a station than to their former local bus stop.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

and we all know how much of a bitch walking is

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Yeah, I get the advantage of a tunnel. The problem is that most of the line isn't in tunnel, and the TTC has an abysmal record at managing surface streetcars. The tunnel's pretty useless if the headways are already all screwed up before they can use it.

Black Creek to Leslie is about 50% of the line and you're forgetting the most congestion along Eglinton occurs through that section. West of Jane the ride would be very quick. As for the east, my hope is they'll gradually weave the line above and underground where necessary to Kennedy. I can see why you're so opposed to the Sheppard LRT now though.

They're spending $6.5 billion on Toronto's meandering suburban streetcar "futilities". They're spending about $4 billion on subways for York.

What's futile about getting more bang for your buck? Please explain how 120kms of LRT at less than $6 million/km equally distributed throughout the city is worse than hundreds of millions per kilometre of subway that only benefit a small section of the city/GTA at large?

Yeah, that sounds like TTC thinking. Build rapid transit to the third-largest office concentration and completely ignore the biggest two. Markham is hardly one of the most suitable corridors for subway. It's pretty absurd to

What? STC already has a subway feeder and Consumers is practically walking distance from Don Mills Stn. Check out the RTES report, Markham IS very suitable for high order transit, between it and/or Morningside a significant bridging between the east and the rest of the city is achievable.

Did you not just say two lines up "Since everyone cares so little about where density actually lies but rather where it could lie... someday... far... indifintely FAR ...tapering off into the abyss..."

You're missing the point. What came first, the chicken or the egg? There wouldn't be a Scarborough Centre yet alone potential density around Sheppard/Markham if the downtown hadn't preceeded it. People in the suburbs can't preceive the need for subways downtown because they still contend with buses. Ideally a downtown line, an Eglinton-Don Mills line and extensions to Sherway and STC should superseed what's on the agenda but if that's not possible, maybe the tide has changed whereby LRTs aren't the adversary of subways, LRTs ARE the new subways, reaching more neighbourhoods for less upfront and residual costs to the gov't and taxpayers.

Ugh, LRT for Shepperd East built within current road medians? What's the point of that? The 190 from STC to Fairview mall couldn't possibly be that much slower than a streetcar. Everyone around there knows that traffic arteries come up at Vic Park and to a lesser extent Kennedy. Even if they extended the subway to just a little past Vic Park, by-passing the traffic there, it would greatly improve the overall service than adding all those street cars.

Sheppard does need to cross the Scarborough border if for no other reason, half the routes out of Don Mills route along Vic Park. Thereafter I can't see why LRT is unsuitable. Agincourt aside (which is no more special than any other suburban neighbourhood with a mall/office/high rise cluster) the density tapers off and people transfering from Stoufville GO to the subway can just wait til Kennedy (a larger polyfunctional terminus closer to downtown anyway). Currently a 1-directional trip on the 190 is 23 mins. If the LRT is S-Bahned between Brimley and McCowan, with a short VP extension and same-platform interchange, commutes from Yonge to STC could be as little as 20 mins (10 mins on subway, 10 mins on LRT).

 

[CDL.TO]

If the LRT is S-Bahned between Brimley and McCowan

Pardon? S-bahned?

 

[rpgr]

Sheppard does need to cross the Scarborough border if for no other reason, half the routes out of Don Mills route along Vic Park. Thereafter I can't see why LRT is unsuitable. Agincourt aside (which is no more special than any other suburban neighbourhood with a mall/office/high rise cluster) the density tapers off and people transfering from Stoufville GO to the subway can just wait til Kennedy (a larger polyfunctional terminus closer to downtown anyway). Currently a 1-directional trip on the 190 is 23 mins. If the LRT is S-Bahned between Brimley and McCowan, with a short VP extension and same-platform interchange, commutes from Yonge to STC could be as little as 20 mins (10 mins on subway, 10 mins on LRT).

LRT is unsuitable because it doesn't alliviate traffic congestion. As I said, the subway should go to at least a little past Vic Park. If your building within the margins of the current road, how the heck would an LRT be able to alliviate congestion?

It's a waste of money. Given the choice to spend a finite amount of money, it would be preferable to extend the subway to just east of Vic Park and keep buses elsewise. The LRT would make almost 0 gains if not be even worst than the current 190 on Shepperd. Why waste a few million for 0 gains?

 

[unimaginative2]

rpgr, it's not a few million. The Sheppard streetcar will cost over five hundred million dollars.

We're losing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have the province fully fund any transit project we wish, including subways, and we're throwing it away for an ideological love of streetcars. Light rail is suitable for many routes, but certainly not as a complete replacement for subways. The real zealots are even pushing for the conversion of existing subway lines into streetcar routes.

Transit City is a flawed and political plan. Glenn de Baeremaeker said it himself: the greatness of Transit City is that it gets a streetcar into every councillor's ward. That doesn't sound like rational transit planning to me.

Black Creek to Leslie is about 50% of the line and you're forgetting the most congestion along Eglinton occurs through that section. West of Jane the ride would be very quick. As for the east, my hope is they'll gradually weave the line above and underground where necessary to Kennedy. I can see why you're so opposed to the Sheppard LRT now though.

Yes, I know it's lots of the route, but so what? Spadina, like these routes, doesn't run in mixed traffic at all. Congestion is irrelevant, and yet it's still wildly unreliable. I fear the same for Eglinton, except worse since we will have spent well a billion and a half on a tunnel that still has completely unreliable service.

Back in the DRL/Network 2011 days, the TTC studied the idea of extending the Queens Quay streetcar north on Bay in a tunnel. They decided that it's a terrible idea, since the capacity of the underground section is vastly higher than the surface section, and so most of the capacity is wasted. It also talked about reliability problems from the surface section spreading into the underground section.

What's futile about getting more bang for your buck? Please explain how 120kms of LRT at less than $6 million/km equally distributed throughout the city is worse than hundreds of millions per kilometre of subway that only benefit a small section of the city/GTA at large?

Transit City is not $6 million per kilometre. I can't fathom where you got that figure. According to the report, Sheppard East will cost $555 million for a 13.6 kilometre route. That's $40.8 million per kilometre, plus ancillary costs like a completely new maintenance and storage facility just for that route since it won't be connected to the existing network..

The Transit City report promises travel times competitive with the car, and yet St. Clair's promised time savings are less than 10% off the existing mixed traffic streetcar. I doubt very much that even those minuscule savings will materialize at all.

If the LRT is S-Bahned between Brimley and McCowan, with a short VP extension and same-platform interchange, commutes from Yonge to STC could be as little as 20 mins (10 mins on subway, 10 mins on LRT).

What does "S-Bahning" an LRT mean?

 

[rpgr]

I wonder if any councillors read this messageboard?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

LRTs ARE the new subways, reaching more neighbourhoods for less upfront and residual costs to the gov't and taxpayers.

Sheppard does need to cross the Scarborough border if for no other reason, half the routes out of Don Mills route along Vic Park. Thereafter I can't see why LRT is unsuitable. Agincourt aside (which is no more special than any other suburban neighbourhood with a mall/office/high rise cluster) the density tapers off and people transfering from Stoufville GO to the subway can just wait til Kennedy (a larger polyfunctional terminus closer to downtown anyway). Currently a 1-directional trip on the 190 is 23 mins. If the LRT is S-Bahned between Brimley and McCowan, with a short VP extension and same-platform interchange, commutes from Yonge to STC could be as little as 20 mins (10 mins on subway, 10 mins on LRT).

So LRT is the new subway...only if you consider "access" the most important part of public transit, just like "access" to the sewer system or running water. Yay, more people can "access" rapid transit! Where do the lines go? How many transfers are they making? How long does the ride take? etc........who cares! They have ACCESS!

Agincourt is just like any other large high-rise cluster with a mall and a few offices? OK, then, if they're so common, name the ones that aren't already on the subway network.

Where does the density taper off - where Warden and Midland stations would be? That's also where the Warden and Midland buses would run. The Midland stop is currently not in a dense area but 1km away is STC, which is quite dense. I think the line can handle *one* stop that might be below 10K riders without collapsing in on itself.

There's simply no way an "S-Bahned" streetcar/subway combo will get you to STC in 20 minutes...the subway alone will take 20 minutes to get from Yonge to STC.

 

[rpgr]

I have to wonder if Detro is using this MB to sharpen up his debate skills? He usually runs opposite to the popular opinion. I'm not calling you a troll (to reasonable to be one) but I can't help but notice your usually on the opposite side.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

I have to wonder if Detro is using this MB to sharpen up his debate skills? He usually runs opposite to the popular opinion. I'm not calling you a troll (to reasonable to be one) but I can't help but notice your usually on the opposite side.

No, I'm not a troll and if you were paying attention you would've noticed I agreed with you that Sheppard subway should be extended to the Scarborough border i.e. Victoria Park. It's east of that point it runs into futility. BRT lanes applied to either Sheppard or the 401 could create a non-stop shuttle between Sheppard/VP and STC without billions relinquished on underground tunnels that only run another 2kms. What else have I opposed that doesn't have valid counter-options?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

OK, then, if they're so common, name the ones that aren't already on the subway network.

Anywhere and everywhere not adjacent to Yonge, Allen or Bloor. Bathurst and Steeles. Don Mills and Finch. Warden and Finch. Milner and Markham. McCowan and Finch. Burnhamthrope and West Mall. Steeles and Kennedy. Rexdale and 27. Albion and Finch. Ellesmere and Neilson/Morningside. Jane and Finch. Lawrence and Don Mills. Lawrence and Markham. Lawrence and Morningside. Lawrence and Weston. Lawrence and Bathurst. Victoria Park and Eglinton. Queensway and West Mall. Again to neglect density is to discriminate by postal code.

Where does the density taper off - where Warden and Midland stations would be? That's also where the Warden and Midland buses would run. The Midland stop is currently not in a dense area but 1km away is STC, which is quite dense. I think the line can handle *one* stop that might be below 10K riders without collapsing in on itself.

There's no point to continuing this discussion since its so hard to convince you that the walls of City Hall aren't paved in enough gold to satisfy the laziness of a marginal few, those who expect the majority of a transit budget to be sunk into a single project when all they need do is switch vehicles. It's suitable now, people do it cause there's nothing better.

There's simply no way an "S-Bahned" streetcar/subway combo will get you to STC in 20 minutes...the subway alone will take 20 minutes to get from Yonge to STC.

Okay, okay I conceed. You're right, you probably can't S-bahn a streetcar line. I've said it before I'm not totally against an extension all the way to STC, I just don't believe it's realistic to think the Sheppard subway right now is more important than a city-wide LRT sytem.

Back in the DRL/Network 2011 days, the TTC studied the idea of extending the Queens Quay streetcar north on Bay in a tunnel.

I never heard of that plan before. Just think of what could've been, a line right through the CBD and City Hall. I feel alot of these capacity issues occur because of mixed traffic. I've never had to wait very long for the 510 because it's in a dedicated lane, and during AM/PM peak it's not uncommon to see streetcars bumper to bumper such that if the first one's full there's a guranteed seat awaiting in the second or third car.

 

[CDL.TO]

you probably can't S-bahn a streetcar line.

Well, you technically can but the context in which you use it makes me think that it's not what you're thinking of. I'm truly curious as to what an "S-bahned streetcar" means to you.

 

[unimaginative2]

There's no point to continuing this discussion since its so hard to convince you that the walls of City Hall aren't paved in enough gold to satisfy the laziness of a marginal few, those who expect the majority of a transit budget to be sunk into a single project when all they need do is switch vehicles. It's suitable now, people do it cause there's nothing better.

Okay, okay I conceed. You're right, you probably can't S-bahn a streetcar line. I've said it before I'm not totally against an extension all the way to STC, I just don't believe it's realistic to think the Sheppard subway right now is more important than a city-wide LRT sytem.

I think you may be misunderstanding what an S-Bahn is... Can you explain what you think so that we can clear up any misunderstanding?

For the umpteenth time, that's not the alternative! Nobody is saying "You can have Sheppard or a city-wide streetcar network." Transit City will cost over $6 billion. That could pay for Sheppard, DRL, plus another subway line or two. Beyond that, the province has paid for every transit project municipalities have proposed. If the city had asked for a subway on Sheppard, it would have been funded! I don't know how many more ways there are to say that.

I never heard of that plan before. Just think of what could've been, a line right through the CBD and City Hall. I feel alot of these capacity issues occur because of mixed traffic. I've never had to wait very long for the 510 because it's in a dedicated lane, and during AM/PM peak it's not uncommon to see streetcars bumper to bumper such that if the first one's full there's a guranteed seat awaiting in the second or third car.

They studied it and they determined that it was useless, because the surface sections would make it too infrequent and unreliable. You must understand that seeing streetcars bumper to bumper is actually a bad thing, and that means that the line is running very unreliably. And when it isn't operating at peak frequencies, that means a very long wait. 20 or 30 minutes for the Spadina is routine. As an aside, Steve Munro's latest report highlighted a gap of just under an hour on the 501 at Long Branch.

 

[JasonParis]

LRT is unsuitable because it doesn't alliviate traffic congestion. As I said, the subway should go to at least a little past Vic Park. If your building within the margins of the current road, how the heck would an LRT be able to alliviate congestion? It's a waste of money. Given the choice to spend a finite amount of money, it would be preferable to extend the subway to just east of Vic Park and keep buses elsewise. The LRT would make almost 0 gains if not be even worst than the current 190 on Shepperd. Why waste a few million for 0 gains?

rpgr, it's not a few million. The Sheppard streetcar will cost over five hundred million dollars. We're losing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have the province fully fund any transit project we wish, including subways, and we're throwing it away for an ideological love of streetcars. Light rail is suitable for many routes, but certainly not as a complete replacement for subways. The real zealots are even pushing for the conversion of existing subway lines into streetcar routes. Transit City is a flawed and political plan. Glenn de Baeremaeker said it himself: the greatness of Transit City is that it gets a streetcar into every councillor's ward. That doesn't sound like rational transit planning to me.

I wonder if any councillors read this messageboard?

Maybe we should use our combined Urban Toronto power to start sending some letters? Maybe start a pro-subway (but not anti-streetcar Facebook group)? It'll at least get someone an interview on CFRB. Every other Facebook group seems to. Also, starting a petition couldn't hurt. It probably won't help either, but it seems to me that the Steve Munro-types have sort of taken control of the pro-transit agenda and I don't think that anyone in the media (or City Hall) is even aware that there's other pro-transit opinions out there.