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While Toronto fought like kids on the playground, Los Angeles got serious.

What rules? If I feel Globe and Mail is biased and left wing, I cannot say so? Ridiculous! Rules say I cannot attack another forum member personally, it does not say I cannot label a biased newspaper as biased.

Globe and Mail is not left wing though. I never said you couldn't say that. I said other things. That violate the sites rules.

Let's talk about Toronto vs LA. Scarborough is not as dense so it brings Toronto numbers down.
 
What rules? If I feel Globe and Mail is biased and left wing, I cannot say so? Ridiculous! Rules say I cannot attack another forum member personally, it does not say I cannot label a biased newspaper as biased.

Don't Jump on Den - he was not critisizing you at all.
 
Are the densities of Scarborough and Etobicoke really that different from LA?

Would have to research it further, but I think the very densest parts of LA may have similar densities as Scarboro .. but there are also some very less dense areas in LA metro. It is a huge huge sprawling region.
 
The east vs west question is interesting. You don't hear much on the progressive transit front from cities like Jacksonville, Indianapolis, Quebec City, Raleigh, and so on (though perhaps there's projects I'm not aware of). Cities like Raleigh or Quebec would have the money and the political will to build mass or regional transit lines, cities like Indianapolis and Jacksonville have the spatial unity that plagues cities like Detroit and Atlanta. I assume it's largely due to a difference in municipal cultures between east and west...differing views of how a city should grow and evolve, differing levels of optimism and boosterism, etc.

Raquel,

Toronto does not have the density of NYC and wont for some time. Building money losing subways is not a good idea. LA is also building subways, in their densest corridor, where they will make money. Why aren't you supporting a Downtown Relief Line, as that is what LA is doing. Yonge and Bloor were streetcars, and converted when demand required it. That will not happen on Sheppardfor a long time.

Density is more or less irrelevant. Concentration matters. No, they're not the same thing. Toronto's concentrations in certain nodes and corridors is a fair bit beyond LA's even though the overall density on a metro/macro scale is similar. On the local/micro scale, the scale actually relevant to transit, we do approach NY (and remember, there's more to NYC than just 50+ storey office towers) and probably exceed many other global cities with vastly more extensive transit systems. It is not normal to have concentrations of people like Warden & Finch, Bathurst & Steeles, Square One area, etc., in the Western world unserved by transit. Maybe in Manila it's normal, or Tehran or Sao Paulo, cities where you can throw a dart at a map and it invariably hits a block of apartment buildings.
 
Come to think of it, technically, Toronto already has the largest and busiest light rail transit system in North America. So we have emulated LA already. Or I guess you could say they are emulating us.

The term "light rail transit" might make sense in other cities, but in a city where the streetcar system has been preserved and continually modernized, where the current streetcar model being used is the Canadian Light Rail Vehicle, it is hard to take any "light rail transit" proposals or their supporters seriously, especially when this "light rail transit" is proposed to use the exact same light rail vehicles as the "streetcar" network.

Toronto shouldn't be building new LRT lines, it should be building new semi-rapid streetcar lines (and new subways) instead.
 
LA has one-fifth the transit ridership per capita of Toronto. Toronto would do well to emulate them.

The east vs west question is interesting. You don't hear much on the progressive transit front from cities like Jacksonville, Indianapolis, Quebec City, Raleigh, and so on (though perhaps there's projects I'm not aware of). Cities like Raleigh or Quebec would have the money and the political will to build mass or regional transit lines, cities like Indianapolis and Jacksonville have the spatial unity that plagues cities like Detroit and Atlanta. I assume it's largely due to a difference in municipal cultures between east and west...differing views of how a city should grow and evolve, differing levels of optimism and boosterism, etc.



Density is more or less irrelevant. Concentration matters. No, they're not the same thing. Toronto's concentrations in certain nodes and corridors is a fair bit beyond LA's even though the overall density on a metro/macro scale is similar. On the local/micro scale, the scale actually relevant to transit, we do approach NY (and remember, there's more to NYC than just 50+ storey office towers) and probably exceed many other global cities with vastly more extensive transit systems. It is not normal to have concentrations of people like Warden & Finch, Bathurst & Steeles, Square One area, etc., in the Western world unserved by transit. Maybe in Manila it's normal, or Tehran or Sao Paulo, cities where you can throw a dart at a map and it invariably hits a block of apartment buildings.

This is fair, but you are saying is what almost everyone else has said. If we extended the sheppard line to STC it would be ridden more. Well why not extend the Bloor line to Malvern Town Centre, which would actually come closer to Downtown. Regardless of the tech it will still be atleast on transfer from fairview to STC.
 
Come to think of it, technically, Toronto already has the largest and busiest light rail transit system in North America. So we have emulated LA already. Or I guess you could say they are emulating us.

The term "light rail transit" might make sense in other cities, but in a city where the streetcar system has been preserved and continually modernized, where the current streetcar model being used is the Canadian Light Rail Vehicle, it is hard to take any "light rail transit" proposals or their supporters seriously, especially when this "light rail transit" is proposed to use the exact same light rail vehicles as the "streetcar" network.

Toronto shouldn't be building new LRT lines, it should be building new semi-rapid streetcar lines (and subways) instead.

To be honest. the point was that this city and region is terrible at cooperating doady. Los Angeles got this done without much problems. And they are building subways too.
 
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Raquel,

Toronto does not have the density of NYC and wont for some time. Building money losing subways is not a good idea. LA is also building subways, in their densest corridor, where they will make money. Why aren't you supporting a Downtown Relief Line, as that is what LA is doing. Yonge and Bloor were streetcars, and converted when demand required it. That will not happen on Sheppardfor a long time.

I think you have to look at the demand for the overall. Almost every bus/streetcar/subway route in the city is overcrowded. You build "LRT" to replace certain bus routes. Sheppard "LRT" will not draw riders from as far away as a completed Sheppard subway would. The ability for "LRT" in Toronto to grow ridership is limited, especially if all the lines are designed as a feeder routes to an overcrowded subway system (speeding billions of dollars on feeder routes is a bad idea also).

LA doesn't have this system-wide capacity issue. Their per capita transit ridership is very low, lower than even Mississauga, which coincidently is also building "LRT". The needs are different. Toronto is not as big or urban as New York City but the transit ridership and the demand for transit is similar. The per capita ridership of the TTC is only slightly less than that of the MTA New York City Transit. I don't see why Toronto has to emulate cities like LA, or Portland, or Dallas at all.
 
When cities in NA say they are building LRT it ussually refers to Light RAPID Transit using streetcar technology.
The LA LRT is very different than TC {as are all US LRT systems} because they are built as rapid transit not enhanced local service like TC.
LA also puts reasonable limits on it's per km construction costs as opposed to Toronto where a little 20km LRT line is going to be the world's most expensive non grade separated line. I love how the TTC and many other ramble on about how "expensive" SkyTrain is but still seems to cost a fraction of Toronto's grade separated systems. It's ridiculous how a tiny 6 km SkyTrain line transfer to LRT and 2 new km LRT expansion is going to cost $1.2 billion and take 4 years yet Vancouver's new 11km totally new grade separated 11km Evergreen SkyTrain line with a 1 km tunnel is going to cost $1.4 billion and take 20 months.
Honestly, a big 8km subway extention in the burbs is going to cost $2.8 billion.
I guess it comes down to demanding true value for the dollar and a setting of priorities. LA and her citizens have their priorities and are willing to put their money where their mouths are for the collective good and benefit of their region. Torontonians on the other hand demand "world class" transit but refuse to put so much as a nickel towards it.
This ridiculous LRT vs subway debate wouldn't be a debate at all as Toronto could get the total grade separated mass/rapid transit system it desperately needs if it was willing to elevate sections, use it's huge rail & Hydro corridors and actually be willing to put in some of it's own money.
I truly do not believe there ius one city on this entire planet that demand senior levels of government pay for all their mass/rapid transit expansion. Other cities realize that talk is cheap and they have to pony up their fair share to get the systems they want. This is why Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton as well as many US cities have been expanding their systems at a dizzying rate and why Toronto has managed a whopping 6 km of rapid transit in 30 years.
 
LA has one-fifth the transit ridership per capita of Toronto. Toronto would do well to emulate them.

You're missing the point, as is everyone else trotting out ridership statistics.

Of course LA is going to have lower ridership statistics than Toronto. LA is the original decentralized city built for the car. It doesn't have a downtown with 400,000 jobs or 19th century neighbourhoods with 36,000 people/mi2. None of this, incidentally, is the job of transit planners or transit agencies, or, maybe even the work of planners. A lot of this is centuries-old development patterns that reinforced the way a city developed before it had a department of planning or before planning was taught at schools. If LA was located in the Northeast its ridership would be higher, even if it had fewer rapid transit lines or an apathetic transit agency (which many Northeastern cities do).

What matters is that LA is improving its transit service while the TTC has, until very recently, shuffled its feet. While we might joke about how LA only has 154,000 light rail riders, 25 years ago they had exactly zero rapid transit riders, while 25 years ago the TTC's ridership was comparable to what it is today.

The east vs west question is interesting. You don't hear much on the progressive transit front from cities like Jacksonville, Indianapolis, Quebec City, Raleigh, and so on (though perhaps there's projects I'm not aware of). Cities like Raleigh or Quebec would have the money and the political will to build mass or regional transit lines, cities like Indianapolis and Jacksonville have the spatial unity that plagues cities like Detroit and Atlanta. I assume it's largely due to a difference in municipal cultures between east and west...differing views of how a city should grow and evolve, differing levels of optimism and boosterism, etc.

I think that Western Canadian and American cities benefit from the following things wrt transit:

1. Metropolitan regions largely within the boundaries of one or two physically large counties. This allows for a regionally integrated transit system to naturally develop, avoiding fiefdoms of little, local transit operators.

2. Largely postwar development meant that cities could plan growth according to the postwar concept of comprehensive development. Planning was not really much of a field, outside of landscaping and design, before WW2.

3. No labour union-mafia-Democratic party machine nexus. Okay, this is sort of an American phenomenon, but it applies to an extent to cities like Montreal, if not Toronto. Back in the 1910s and 1920s, poor immigrant groups in the US climbed the social ladder by forming labour unions and organized crime syndicates and by electing members of their group to office through the Democratic party. While this certainly raised the standard of living of poor, landed immigrants, it also laid the foundation for massive corruption and appointments to key public sector positions based on nothing but patronage. Even though these groups don't really exist anymore, this managerial "style" and way of doing business persists in Eastern cities.

4. No old boys clubs. Similar to (3), only advocating for different groups in these same, eastern cities. Similar effects.

I should mention that it really depends on the time when the city was settled, rather than where it is on the continent. San Francisco suffers from a lot of (1), (2) and (3), probably because it is as old and established as cities on the Northeast. Not surprisingly, their municipal transit operator is godawful for all the reasons we've mentioned.
 
^Isn't it a bit of a stretch to link all union activity to the mob?
 
LA is the original decentralized city built for the car. It doesn't have a downtown with 400,000 jobs

Nit picking, I know, but LA's downtown actually has 418,000 jobs. That's down from 605,000 in 1995. Of course, that's a far smaller proportion of regional employment than Toronto and those 400,000 jobs are pretty much single-handedly sustaining its mass transit system.

Density is almost meaningless in determining how many people will ride transit. Downtown employment has a far stronger correlation with transit ridership. That's because transit works best on a hub-and-spoke basis. Toronto's subway acts as the hub from which frequent bus routes radiate. Most American cities haven't figured that out, and they either operate feeble suburban bus networks or don't even bother orienting them to their rapid transit lines. Worse still, some actually charge you extra to transfer between bus and rapid transit.

In some ways, I think Los Angeles' problems preceded the interstates. The vaunted Pacific Electric system of interurbans encouraged a much less concentrated form of development than the subway lines being built on the east coast. Once the car arrived and the interurbans were increasingly stuck in traffic and unable to compete with expressways, the transit system collapsed completely. In the eastern cities, the subways always retained a reasonable ridership even through transit's nadir.

I think a big part of the difference in transit development in the East and West right now is the cost of building infrastructure. The planned LA subway extensions are less than half the cost per kilometre of the Second Avenue Subway. Likewise, the Canada Line was less than half the price per kilometre of Toronto's Eglinton line, and it's fully grade-separated.
 

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