What happened to smart growth?

[rfid]

I think a big problem in Toronto is we are still stuck believing that line = route. I think we need to eliminate that gridlock mentality to come up with more creative solutions to our transportation problems.

Roads are infrastructure. So is rail. Buses run on roads. Rail vehicles run on rail. We build roads incrementally, why can't we build rail incrementally too?

I commute from Scarborough to Mississauga (by 401). It was discussed in the Sheppard Subway Expansion thread that most people don't travel end-to-end on a line. One possible solution is express service.

Another consequence of believing line = route is that we build fairly linear along existing streets as demand warrants. We end up with proposals that do not provide meaningful cross-town connections or route service along corridors that make little sense to the average public.

What we need to do is connect major nodes in a hierarchy. Currently, GO train services runs to Union Station. What happened to the proposed cross-town? Two-way, all-day service is still a distance away.

Other cities have some form of hierarchy. Paris has RER trains combined with subways. New York City has regional rail, express subway service, and local service.

Similarly, our highway system isn't designed within the urban centres around hierarchy. US interstate and Quebec autoroute system have auxiliary routes that serve the area surrounding a node.

Ideally, I imagine Toronto as a region comprised of major nodes, connected by regional rail and highways, with the nodes themselves served by subways, LRTs, BRTs, arterial roads, and so forth. Depending on proximity to the node, you may traverse one less step of the hierarchy.

One day I may embark on an LRT to get to a GO train station. From there, I'll take the GO train to Mississauga, where I'll get off and take a BRT to steps from my office, where I'll have a nice, healthy walk to the front door. It will be competitive with the 35 minutes it takes in the best of times driving on the 401.

What happened to smart growth?

 

[Tcmetro]

The conversion of GO commuter rail lines into regional lines are certainly taking longer than an ideal amount of time to get off the ground; however, when they are up and running, they will be able to provide fast east-to-west or north-to-east or west service. Of course for most suburb-to-suburb commuting, the existing GO routes are inconvenient at best. The proposed 407 Busway could link to the Mississauga Busway, providing good connections from York to Mississauga and Oakville. The other major east-west link would be provided by the Eglinton-Scarborough line, which would be especially useful if extended to Markham Centre, Renforth Gateway, and the airport.

The missing link in all this is some sort of regional line that follows the 401, connecting the airport and Mississauga Busway, North York Centre, Scarborough Centre, and Pickering. This would definitely be a major investment, but is essentially a preresquite for fast, regional, crosstown commuting patterns.

The express line concept would require lots of new development near all the major transit interchanges, both office and residential, which are identified as "mobility hubs" in the Metrolinx plans. On the other hand, Toronto seems to focused on placing new development on the arterials with the "Avenues" plan. These are in conflict with each other, but it seems the 905 is interested in forming new nodes. Markham and Mississauga have been good at this, but Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Brampton, etc... need to start making use of their major transport infrastructure.

 

[Palma]

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Another consequence of believing line = route is that we build fairly linear along existing streets as demand warrants. We end up with proposals that do not provide meaningful cross-town connections or route service along corridors that make little sense to the average public.

Spadina is the exception except for the University line that does run linear along existing street. Spadina does not run linear along Sapdina and except for 2 stops, the others are no where near Spadina as it ends at Eglinton. The new subways cars now actually show on the map how Spadina runs diaganolly which is a correct representation as compared to before when it was shows as pretty well linear north south

 

[andrewpmk]

Move closer to work... Scarborough to Mississauga is one commute from hell and always will be. Can take 2 hours one way via 401.

 

[Dandy Horse]

Should one actually travel that far for work, in the first place? why don't you just move to scarborough and then walk/ ttc to work instead? that sounds rude and simple, but most of the reason we have so much commuting and traffic in the first place is because people think they can just do that, which they can, but at a heafty price, years of life spent listening to cfrb 1010. personally, i never owned a car and never will, so if i worked in scarbs, I'd live there too, no question.

 

[leopetr]

Move closer to work.

I was going to say the same thing, but since it's been said I will suggest a counter-argument: Moving closer to work is only practical if you are single or if both you and your partner work in the same area.

 

[TOareaFan]

These are in conflict with each other, but it seems the 905 is interested in forming new nodes. Markham and Mississauga have been good at this, but Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Brampton, etc... need to start making use of their major transport infrastructure.

As a resident of Brampton....I need to ask.....what major transport infrastructure do we have? and which of those major transport infrastructures are we not making use of? and how would we do that?

Brampton is struggling with its current population and is one of the nodes of growth promoted by smart growth legislation...that is fine and, to some extent makes sense........but I can tell you that growth is causing major issues in that town and very little is being done to address the infrastructure shortfall it faces. As a hobby, I attend planning committee meetings and the anger that every new development faces (be it a tradditional sprawling sub-division or an attempt at building some height) and that is directed at council is palpable.....yet when the people come to the microphones to express their anger they are not angry about things within the city's control....yes they direct their anger at the city but the issues they raise are, pretty much without exception, matters squarely within the control of the province.....so if the province wants Brampton to be a growth node...it has to come to the table with some solutions....otherwise things are gonna get (if they are not already) very ugly in Brampton.

 

[kkgg7]

Moving closer to work is only practical if you are single or if both you and your partner work in the same area.

What would you do if your spouse works or can find jobs in another city 1000 miles away? You either take it, live separately, or you keep looking for other jobs.
It is the same idea here. Driving 1.5 or even 2 hours one way to work? One should only do it temporarily.

 

[nfitz]

Driving 1.5 or even 2 hours one way to work? One should only do it temporarily.

Agreed. If anyone thinks this is an option, then clearly gasoline is still way too cheap.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

What would you do if your spouse works or can find jobs in another city 1000 miles away? You either take it, live separately, or you keep looking for other jobs.
It is the same idea here. Driving 1.5 or even 2 hours one way to work? One should only do it temporarily.

Would you quit if your job moved across the city?

 

[rbt]

Would you quit if your job moved across the city?

Certainly would have demanded payment for the commute time either directly (charge by the hour) or indirectly (higher salary).

I've also moved once (10 years ago) to be within walking distance of my employer and haven't had a daily commute by TTC or vehicle since.

 

[kkgg7]

Would you quit if your job moved across the city?

if I am single, I will move even if I have bought a house.
if I am married and my partner works near the current residence, I will keep working for the same employer but start looking for new jobs actively. before you say what if that's not possible, I am willing to give up 20% salary for living close to work.
30 minutes one way, either by car or by public transit, is the maximum time I can accept, and I have never gone beyond that in my life.

 

[andrewpmk]

As a resident of Brampton....I need to ask.....what major transport infrastructure do we have? and which of those major transport infrastructures are we not making use of? and how would we do that?

Brampton is struggling with its current population and is one of the nodes of growth promoted by smart growth legislation...that is fine and, to some extent makes sense........but I can tell you that growth is causing major issues in that town and very little is being done to address the infrastructure shortfall it faces. As a hobby, I attend planning committee meetings and the anger that every new development faces (be it a tradditional sprawling sub-division or an attempt at building some height) and that is directed at council is palpable.....yet when the people come to the microphones to express their anger they are not angry about things within the city's control....yes they direct their anger at the city but the issues they raise are, pretty much without exception, matters squarely within the control of the province.....so if the province wants Brampton to be a growth node...it has to come to the table with some solutions....otherwise things are gonna get (if they are not already) very ugly in Brampton.

Brampton has done very poorly at attracting employment to major nodes. The new Loblaws headquarters is a suburban office park that is pitifully served by transit and near Highway 407 in a pretty undesirable area. Office buildings like this should be required by law to be near major transit nodes (like at Queen/Main near Brampton GO station) or they should not be permitted to be built. This is especially bad since the headquarters used to be at Yonge/St. Clair in Toronto, it must be a horribly long commute on 401 for anyone who used to work in the old location.

 

[TOareaFan]

Brampton has done very poorly at attracting employment to major nodes. The new Loblaws headquarters is a suburban office park that is pitifully served by transit and near Highway 407 in a pretty undesirable area. Office buildings like this should be required by law to be near major transit nodes (like at Queen/Main near Brampton GO station) or they should not be permitted to be built. This is especially bad since the headquarters used to be at Yonge/St. Clair in Toronto, it must be a horribly long commute on 401 for anyone who used to work in the old location.

Well, Brampton can't be blamed for the new commutes of people who's jobs relocated........I would suggest that most people outside of Brampton would view the current location of Loblaw's as easier to get to than Queen and Main........also, any attempts in the past by thecity of Brampton to pass zoning control bylaws that forced development into their "downtown" have been successfully appealed to the OMB.

I appreciate your response but it still does not answer the question which major infrastructure that the city is not using?

 

[andrewpmk]

The point of being at Queen and Main is that this location is served by GO train, GO bus, and 2 Zum bus routes. If more service were added to the GO train line then it would be very easy to reverse commute from Toronto. Meanwhile Mississauga Rd and 407 is served by lousy bus service, Highway 407 and 401, the vast majority of people will drive.

Since people will commute from all over the GTA to get to jobs a location with poor transit like this is problematic. Also Highway 407 has expensive tolls so many drivers use free parallel routes like 401, Derry, and Steeles which get congested in both directions in rush hour. If you are coming from Toronto you have no choice but to use 401 or Gardiner which is congested both ways. The traffic in Mississauga, which has far more office parks like this than Brampton is horrible in rush hour because of this. Plus it is shortsighted for an employer to not think about the effects of moving their headquarters a long distance (Yonge and St. Clair to Mississauga Rd and 407 can take 1+ hours by car due to traffic congestion).

There needs to be a provincial law providing significant tax credits for employment near major transit routes, and/or banning office parks with bad transit service entirely.