kEiThZ
Superstar
There's also no business case. I can't see a privatization effort with no buyers.
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
There's also no business case. I can't see a privatization effort with no buyers.
cplchanb
Senior Member
Which is a shame...If only the network was larger especially on the corridor, it would make a better case. Perhaps they could sell off the just corridor and make it an ICE service.
urbanfan89
Active Member
CN will be free to run trains on the Toronto/Montreal corridor unmolested by pesky Via Rail trains. Maybe 3 or 4 trains per day can run Toronto-Peterborough-Smith Falls-Ottawa, but no more. The Havelock Sub also appears to be a marginal business for CP, so they'll be willing to part ways with it for a price.
A straight line between Smith Falls and Kingston is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's a good sell to the general public as a proof of concept.
"Those bureaucrats in Ottawa are using taxpayer money for a toy for themselves..."
A better one might be between, say, Saskatoon and Regina or Winnipeg and Brandon. Dress it up as a "year long trial" involving a couple of high-speed DMU's. If need be, form a partnership with the province to circumvent the bureaucrats at Via Rail.
crs1026
Senior Member
The Smiths Falls-Kingston leg may be a far better proposition for an infrastructure demonstration than the Peterboro line. You build that one leg - not that many km's, not as large a capital outlay - and you charge VIA on a per-use basis for access. Pay as you go. It is contained and the amount of capital at risk is much less than the Peterboro idea.
It would be interesting to know what VIA is charged for just the Kingston-Brockville segment of the CN line, and what the Brockville-Smiths Falls cost is. Could an infrastructure enterprise make a return for the IB by charging just that amount for the Kingston-Smiths Falls route? If so, the route becomes cost neutral to VIA, but it would cut a good number of minutes off the trip, so presumably adds revenue/ridership and cuts operating/fuel cost.
Would CN agree to more slots Toronto-Kingston, or would they be amenable with a certain amount invested in more triple track in that segment? That investment, which might amount to only 40 or so km's of additional triple track, might have to be borrowed from the bank also. I wonder if that amount could be a second business proposition. It would be more complicated than the above, as CN's assets are involved, but perhaps it would be a more contained case study to work out a model where CN enjoys a rate of return from VIA's presence instead of the current formula.
- Paul
dowlingm
Senior Member
But you haven't explained how the Havelock properly and efficiently integrates to the rest of CN's network, even assuming CP vacates the entire line from Smith Falls westward. Also, it is assumed the Havelock sub won't have to be significantly rebuilt - trackbed is assumed but is that line also double stack cleared the whole way?
I don't understand the rationale here. For Kingston-Smiths Falls (currently 1.25-1.5hrs) a high speed line roughly parallelling Highway 15 cuts the Brockville corner, reducing the track mileage from about 130km to about 100, shaving a whole bunch of track miles as well as being signal optimised for short fast trainsets rather than kilometer long freights. Even at current speeds you're surely getting 20 minutes from that shift alone, more if you can actually get that extra 15mph for P42s or 30mph for Brightliners, and no stopping for Brockville never mind Gananoque. That puts several Toronto-Ottawa trips from 4hr+ to 3h30+, notably 646 (now 4h07m). That has potential to shift some decisions about whether to take other modes - even if no improvements at all are made between Smiths Falls and Ottawa.
Instead we should build a new alignment from Winnipeg to Brandon? The number of passengers of which is probably equivalent to the *gain* on the Toronto-Ottawa corridor, if not less?
dowlingm
Senior Member
VIA owns Brockville-Smiths Falls. My recollection is that CP wanted to abandon it so VIA didn't have much choice, but I am open to correction.
crs1026
Senior Member
Correct. And it has seen some upgrading since VIA bought it. But if VIA had a line linking Kingston and Smiths Falls directly, they wouldn't need to continue to use it. So to your suggestion, consider whatever it costs VIA today to operate as part of the "current" equation.
- Paul
urbanfan89
Active Member
Between Perth and Vaudreuil, the new CN line would be built parallel to the existing CP line. Of course, reopening the entire former CP line will require upgrading it for double stack containers - but far more complex projects are done all the time.
Just an idea. Somehow I think a PoC that links Ottawa to Toronto will lead to accusations it's a bureaucrat's toy for themselves, which would make it politically toxic. It's irrational, but politics is never rational.
That's why I think the first PoC for HFR in Canada should be somewhere no one (outside the region) notices and outside the control of bureaucrats in Ottawa.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Why would it?
I don't buy this at all. There aren't too many places where VIA is providing service to begin with. So nobody is suddenly going to be complaining about upgrades to a rail service they don't have.
Moreover, as long as HFR covers Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal in Phase 1 with firm promises to extend to London and Quebec City next and Windsor eventually, you'll see tremendous public support. This is half the country's population and nearly as many seats. So the political payoff is huge, especially if they launch with a plan to cover the full corridor.
dowlingm
Senior Member
there does have to be at least some playing favourites. Quebec-Windsor is longer than Boston-Washington (about 720 miles vs 440). The alternative is to spread the investment dollars so thinly the effect of them disappears.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Indeed. Windsor and Quebec are not included with the proposed first phase of HFR. The Province might add-on an extension to the federal HFR by facilitating *Higher Speed Rail* along the Northern Tier to K/W...perhaps London. As to how remains a conundrum...
The map shows the distance challenge:
steveintoronto
Superstar
Whatever...
salsa
Senior Member
steveintoronto
Superstar
Yes, aimed at your level. How many characters left from 140?Finally, a steve post that can be read in a reasonable amount of time.
Northern Light
Superstar
Steve arguing w/nfitz: karmic justice writ large for both! LOL
In fairness to Steve; because I'm always fair. nfitz is out to lunch on this one.
Not to say the Ptbo routing is likely, but there has been ample, public, discussion of this route option by VIA itself. That nfitz somehow missed it.......