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"Urban" vs. "suburban"

I think you're right. It has a lot to do with how the developments "meet the street". And so far the Daniels' buildings in MCC have been doing a decent job at that so far, from what I've seen. Even the townhouses they've built there "feel" urban to me. And more on-street retail is coming, so that'll improve things even further. And Amacon seems to be planning to do a similiar thing in MCC (though not so much their Hurontario-area developments).
 
From an article "Introducing The Master Plan: A Chronicle of New Urbanism and Exurban Decay" from this link at FastCompany.

"I was in California," the consummate ad man Don Draper rhapsodized last season in Mad Men. "Everything's new, and it's clean. The people are full of hope. New York is in decay." The suburban landscape that awed him circa 1963 was the fruit of a warm climate, middle-class manufacturing jobs, Federal Housing Administration mortgages, brand-new interstate highways, and tax code changes that made shopping malls a slam-dunk for developers. The immediate result was master-planned communities such as Lakewood, California, "the Levittown of the West," which started from nothing in 1950 and had grown to 17,500 homes by the time Don Draper rolled through town. The rest is post-war geographic history.

What a difference a half-century makes. America's suburbs are now home to the largest and fastest growing poor population, according to a recent report by the Brookings Institution. The country's largest metro areas saw their poor populations grow by 25% between 2000 and 2008, faster than either primary cities or rural areas. (The suburban fringes of Los Angeles were expected to take the biggest hit last year.) Part of this has do with math--the suburbs grew three times faster during that span. But faced with aging infrastructure, higher maintenance costs, and growing numbers of poor, this increase could become self-perpetuating, a la the inner cities in the 1960s and 1970s. "Clearly," the Brookings Report concluded, "the balance of metropolitan poverty has passed a tipping point."

There have been others. The suburban landscape we once aspired to and now take for granted is changing before our eyes. The absolute number of vehicles on America's roads fell last year for the first time in fifty years. So did the number of miles driven and the gallons of gasoline consumed. ExxonMobil believes the latter is in permanent decline due to high prices and biofuels. Our centrifugal patterns of urban development are no longer a given. A study released last summer by CEOs for Cities found that homes in denser, more walkable communities commanded premiums as high as $30,000 in cities like Charlotte, Chicago, and Sacramento. Another study the year before concluded that distant suburbs had suffered much steeper declines in value than those in "close in" neighborhoods.

The data lends some credence to Christopher Leinberger's gloomy prediction in The Atlantic two years ago that the exurbs would become "the next slums," littered with as many as 22 million superfluous McMansions. Last year, creative class demographer Richard Florida postulated (also in The Atlantic) that a new "spatial fix" was underway, punishing low-density suburbs and rewarding high-density neighborhoods. Echoing economists like Harvard's Ed Glaeser, he declared "the economy is different now. It no longer revolves around simply making and moving things. Instead, it depends on generating and transporting ideas. The places that thrive today are those with the highest velocity of ideas, the highest density of talented and creative people, the highest rate of metabolism. Velocity and density are not words that many people use when describing the suburbs. The economy is driven by key urban areas; a different geography is required."

The Obama administration feels the same. "The days where we're just building sprawl forever, those days are over," the President announced within a month of taking office. Two weeks ago, he told the U.S. Conference of Mayors "we've learned a great deal about what we can do--and shouldn't do--to help rebuild and revitalize our cities and metropolitan areas for the future. So the budget that I'll present next month will begin to back up this urban vision by putting an end to throwing money after what doesn't work--and by investing responsibly in what does," backed in part by $300 million in stimulus-funded grants for cities willing to follow smart growth principles.

"Because when it comes to development," he added, "it's time to throw out old policies that encouraged sprawl and congestion, pollution, and ended up isolating our communities in the process."

New Urbanists and city-dwellers cheer such talk, while suburban defenders such as Joel Kotkin hear a declaration of "war against suburbia." But as always, the messy reality falls somewhere in between.

A year ago, I asked Alan Pisarski, the dean of transportation studies and author of the monumental, decennial "Commuting in America" series, whether traffic and congestion patterns suggested Americans would rather walk than drive. "People may want places to walk," he replied, "but they may want to drive to get there." His point is that Americans may choose to live, work and play in mixed-use communities, but they have no intention of moving any closer to cities. For one thing, America's population has doubled since the flight to suburbia began in earnest around 1950, and so there aren't enough brownstones to go around. For another, commercial development in America doesn't encourage it. If we need and want dense, walkable communities, we will have to figure out how to build more of them.

Maybe the New Urbanists' greatest innovation is "SmartCode," their rigorous zoning manual for guaranteeing the integrity of a newly-built neighborhood. But its existence only underscores the fact that left to their own devices, market forces and their instruments--the developers--would never follow these precepts on their own. And why would they, when the system is aligned against it? Tax codes, zoning, community boards, and financing are a straitjacket on new types of development--they created a product that works, and they're preconditioned to produce more of it. (For an excellent account of how the suburban sausage gets made, read Witold Rybczynski's Last Harvest.)

If we want to change the spatial fix of America, we will either have to change the underlying conditions to make density more profitable, or find someone enlightened who can work within the existing system. Realistically, we'll need more of both.

My new column, "The Master Plan," will follow the people, cities, companies and policies working to make this change possible, and to create, in President Obama's words last week, "more livable and environmentally sustainable communities."
 
Urban to Rural -- My Proposed Taxonomy

As a long-time student of cities, it seems to me that there is a lot of confusion on this topic and, as a result, this has led to a lot of confusion in the field overall.

Since the original poster mentioned NYC -- and seemed to be pretty astute in his observations, too -- and since I've never been to Toronto (but hope to visit some day), I hope people won't mind my using the NYC metro area for my taxonomy.

Note: as someone who thinks of himself as a Jane Jacobite, it seems to me that mixed uses and mostly high ground coverage (and thus walkability), but not necessarily high densities or tall buildings, are the most defining feature of areas that are urban. In other words, you can have a relatively low density area that has mixed uses and it will still be urban, but even a high density area having a severe separation of uses is not truly urban (but, essentially, a high-density suburb). Although in areas that are truly urban, there is also the freedom to build tall buildings for high densities -- which make such areas even more truly urban.

Urban -- truly and fully urban
Manhattan, especially below 59th St. But could also be low-rise cores of medieval cities, etc.
Hallmarks of genuine urbanism: Mixed uses (or at least possiblity of mixed uses), high ground coverage and "relatively" (compared to other settlements of a similar era, etc.) high densities.

Quasi-Urban -- has superficial "look" of urbanism, but is not truly urban.
Large areas of the Bronx, like areas around the Grand Concourse, are best examples, although parts of Brooklyn and Queens also fit into this category.

These areas typically do not have a good mix of uses (e.g., commerce is forbidden along much of the Grand Concourse). Neither city nor suburb, such areas have the "worst" of both worlds: the problems of relatively high density (without the benefits) and the car dependent quietness/boringness of suburbia (without the beauty, serenity or parking spaces). Harlem and Bed-Stuy also have some of this quality.

Although I've only visited a few other cities, it seems to me other North American cities, like Philadelphia and Baltimore, also have such areas -- although they are not nearly as large as NYC's. Those outlying, tower-in-the-park high-rise "slums" of French cities, would also fit into this category.

Such areas form the "grey" belts of cities that Jacobs correctly saw as usually the weakest (and most troubled) parts of cities (having neither the utility, economic vitality, convience or "glamour" of truely urban districts, nor the "quiet" of truely suburban areas).

Semi-Suburban -- older, trolley car suburbs.
Much of Queens (where I grew up)
These areas are very similar to "classic" post WWII suburbs, but the single-family houses are usually on relatively small plots of land. There is a separation of uses, but on a smaller scale than "classic" post WWII suburbs. In actuality, these areas are pretty auto-dependent, despite the presence of bus lines and subways (into "the city").

Suburban -- "classic" post WWII car-dependent suburbs
Levittown, Nassau County
Single-family homes on large (by urban standards) lots; strict separation of uses; low-ground coverage; auto-dependent.

Exurban -- suburbs of second homes / vacation homes
Hamptons?, Hudson Valley, etc.

Rural -- Non-suburban, farming, etc.

I think it's important to remember that these are not categories are not necessarily sharply defined (as some areas blend gradually into others) and, most importantly, are not fixed categories, as one type of area can naturally (in the absence of zoning) morph into another -- even Manhattan was rural at one time!

P.S. -- As someone who is a critic of New [Sub-]Urbanism, it seems to me that one of the worst thing about such developments (which strike me as often pretty nice visually) is that they are grossly mis-labeled -- they are NOT really urban and they thus confuse the discussion with their name. In my opinion, such areas are really retro-suburban (i.e., suburbia from between the wars) or "sub" urban or semi-suburban or, in some higher density examples, quasi-urban, or neo-quasi-urban (!).

Wed., March 3, 2010, 10:09 p.m.
 
Note: I'm a n00b at this, but...

As a long-time student of cities, it seems to me that there is a lot of confusion on this topic and, as a result, this has led to a lot of confusion in the field overall.

Since the original poster mentioned NYC -- and seemed to be pretty astute in his observations, too -- and since I've never been to Toronto (but hope to visit some day), I hope people won't mind my using the NYC metro area for my taxonomy.

Note: as someone who thinks of himself as a Jane Jacobite, it seems to me that mixed uses and mostly high ground coverage (and thus walkability), but not necessarily high densities or tall buildings, are the most defining feature of areas that are urban. In other words, you can have a relatively low density area that has mixed uses and it will still be urban, but even a high density area having a severe separation of uses is not truly urban (but, essentially, a high-density suburb). Although in areas that are truly urban, there is also the freedom to build tall buildings for high densities -- which make such areas even more truly urban.

Urban -- truly and fully urban
Manhattan, especially below 59th St. But could also be low-rise cores of medieval cities, etc.
Hallmarks of genuine urbanism: Mixed uses (or at least possiblity of mixed uses), high ground coverage and "relatively" (compared to other settlements of a similar era, etc.) high densities.
Under that definition, the downtown cores of many large cities would not be urban.

Others might just want to classify your Manhattan as "desirable urban" vs. "undesirable urban" in other cities.
 
Don't find the suburban versus urban debate very useful. I think it would be far better if we broke the city down by age because that says so much about the policies, tradition, economics and ideologies that shaped city building at the time they were built. The result is different building types, road widths and girds, densities. On top of that these places are always changing and evolving.

Saying its a 1920s neighbourhood or 70s development says a lot more. You'll never get the suburban to be urban no matter how dense the burbs get because we have an economic system and policy system that would make it impossible to replicate another generations urban. A city is an evolving cultural artifact and cannot be broken down into just urban or suburban.
 
Saying its a 1920s neighbourhood or 70s development says a lot more. You'll never get the suburban to be urban no matter how dense the burbs get because we have an economic system and policy system that would make it impossible to replicate another generations urban. A city is an evolving cultural artifact and cannot be broken down into just urban or suburban.
When was most of Yonge and Finch built?
 
Proposed Urban to Rural Taxonomy

Benjamin Hemric (me) originally wrote (in part):

Note: as someone who thinks of himself as a Jane Jacobite, it seems to me that mixed uses and mostly high ground coverage (and thus walkability), but not necessarily high densities or tall buildings, are the most defining feature of areas that are urban. In other words, you can have a relatively low density area that has mixed uses and it will still be urban, but even a high density area having a severe separation of uses is not truly urban (but, essentially, a high-density suburb). Although in areas that are truly urban, there is also the freedom to build tall buildings for high densities -- which make such areas even more truly urban.

Hallmarks of genuine urbanism: Mixed uses (or at least possiblity of mixed uses), high ground coverage and "relatively" (compared to other settlements of a similar era, etc.) high densities.

Eug then wrote:

Under that definition, the downtown cores of many large cities would not be urban.

Benjamin Hemric writes:

I'm not sure if I understand the comment. Why would the downtown cores of many large cities not be urban under the above defintion?

Thurs., 3/4/10, 8:25 p.m.
 
I'm not sure if I understand the comment. Why would the downtown cores of many large cities not be urban under the above defintion?
I think his rationale is that the financial districts / downtown core of many cities are almost exclusively office space plus a smattering of hotels, and are thus not really "mixed use".
 
Yes. Downtown cores are often not mixed use. They are very uninteresting after business hours, but I would call them urban.
 
A challenge would be to point to a single downtown core (even a financial district surrounded by parking lots) that isn't mixed use - especially compared to the suburbs, where you'll have a mall containing nothing but retail across the highway from an office park containing no retail, across a forest from single detached houses. I bet none don't have uses like hotels, as mentioned, plus parks/squares, churches, etc. Of course, if one's definition of mixed use is just condo dwellers living above cafes......but I'll assume people are giving thought to whether the mix is vertical or horizontal, and at what scale.
 
Proposed Urban to Rural Taxonomy

Eug wrote:

Downtown cores are often not mixed use. They are very uninteresting after business hours, but I would [still] call them urban.

Benjamin writes:

Interesting point!

1) But I think there is a difference between "legislated" (by zoning) separation of uses (as is seen, for instance, in suburban, semi-suburan and quasi-urban areas) and a natural sorting out and consolidation of uses (as seen in a number of downtown areas). The former (legislated by zoned separation of uses) tend to be severe and geographically extensive, while the later tend to be less severe, more geographically limited and less permanent (and more amenable to change). (I think this is what Scarberiankhatru is also saying.)

The issue you raise is addressed, I beleive, in the following phrases of the taxonomy (added emphasis not in the original):

" . . . but even a high density area having a SEVERE separation of uses is not truly urban . . ."

" . . . Mixed uses (OR AT LEAST THE POSSIBLITY of mixed uses) . . . "

2) Areas that suffer from a severe and/or geographically extensive lack of mixed uses, but "appear" city-like in some other respects, are indeed not truly urban, so it seems to me, but more correctly understood as being "quasi-urban." That's the point of the quasi-urban category -- to recognized the fact that there are areas that seem urban in some ways, but really aren't.

3) Just because an area is in the center of what was once a city doesn't mean it is necessarily still urban. It is possible for a formerly urban downtown to not be truly urban anymor (whether because of a lack of mixed uses, or because of a lack of high ground coverage, a lack of ability to change, etc.).

While I haven't been to Detroit, from what I've read it seems that it's possible that it isn't truly urban anymore, but maybe quasi-urban instead.

While traveling by bus to Boston not too long ago, I noticed some small cities that seem to have had their entire downtowns replaced by office buidings / hotels atop parking decks. If this is true, maybe such cities aren't truly urban anymore either, but are now downtown office parks -- and thus quasi-urban.

Large single-use urban renewal projects where mixed uses are virtually impossible, even when such projects are in the heart of the city ("suburban living in the heart of the city"), are not really urban, so it seems to me, but quasi-urban. (For instance I would put Stuyvesant Town in the quasi-urban cateory; same holds true for Title I projects, like Washington Square Village, and for most public housing projects).

If Le Corbusier had been successful in tearing down a significant portion of Paris and building a tower-in-the-park development in its place, the resulting area would not be urban, but quasi-urban, even though it would be pretty much in the center of Paris.

4) Perhaps in making a distinction between the truly "urban" and the "quasi-urban," the "walkabilty" and the "openess to spontaneous / non-governmentally approved change" (fluidity of use and form) should be given more emphasis.

Thurs., 3/4/10, 12:15 p.m.
 
How about Washington DC? Parts of downtown have a few malls, a few museums, and a whole bunch of federal office buildings and other office buildings. And for many of those office buildings, you can't even enter them without ID.

Downtown Columbus was a few malls, a few hotels, and a bunch of office buildings. Nobody did anything downtown. In fact, nobody even existed downtown after 6 pm. I found out the hard way. I was in a hotel downtown, except that the downtown completely shut down downtown in the evening. Even all the restaurants near us (except one fast food restaurant) closed. It was a ghost town, like in those horror movies where all the residents have either evacuated or become zombies and you're wondering where they are. But even just having a couple of zombies around would have been more interesting than downtown Columbus at night.

Downtown Atlanta sucks too, but isn't quite as bad.

In any case, for most people, ALL of these areas are urban. They just suck as urban areas. It seems to me you just want "urban" to mean "urban and interesting", but not all urban is interesting.

BTW, I've mentioned before that Cityplace in Toronto has failed as an urban condo development by some measures, in that the area is quite uninteresting, and it's almost like a condo bedroom community stuck on the edge of downtown, a misplaced quasi-suburban high-rise complex as it were. Yet, I would still have to consider it urban if you force me to define it in terms of current norms... just not a very successful one in attracting people who don't actually live there. There is some limited mixed use, but that's just because the zoning laws force to have limited commercial/retail. Meanwhile, places like Yonge and Eglinton are outside the downtown core, yet feel quite urban to me. Both Yonge and Eglinton and Cityplace are urban, but Yonge and Eglinton is more successful as a destination.
 
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Proposed Urban to Rural Taxonomy

1) A number of interesting issues have been raised which I'd like to discuss.

First, however, a quick definition of "quasi." I just looked it up in Webster's Third International, and one of the definitions for "quasi" is "as if; in a manner; in some sense; seemingly, almost." So "quasi-urban" would be an area that is seemingly or almost (but not quite) truly urban.

I think this is a very useful category for an urban to rural taxonomy to have. (The dictionary definition of taxonomy is something like, "the systematic distinguishing, ordering and naming of type groups within a subject field.")

- - - - - - - -

2) Eug wrote (in part):

How about Washington DC? Parts of downtown have a few malls, a few museums, and a whole bunch of federal office buildings and other office buildings . . ."

Benjamin Hemric writes:

I've only been to Washington, D.C., for a few minutes (!) many, many years ago. But from what I've read and heard, there are indeed a number of areas that are NOT truly urban, and such areas would indeed seem to be more accurately described as, and more helpfully understood as, being "quasi-urban" (i.e., they may seem in some ways to be urban, but they really aren't).

In some ways, one could say that Washington, D.C. is maybe even a "poster child" for the category "quasi-urban" as it seems to me that many people have mentioned it's "weird" non-urban quality. There are important differences between "downtown" Washington, D.C. (by "downtown" I mean what most people consider to be the center of D.C.) and other, more truly urban, downtowns -- and this is what a taxonomy should capture.

(After 9/11, I was involved in an advocacy group trying to stop the "tunnelization" of West St. adjacent to the World Trade Center site. And one of the things that I noticed was that most proponents of the tunnel wanted to "Washington, D.C.-ize" the area. And although I don't think I used the word "quasi-urban" at the time, that is what I think they were trying to make the area into. And it seems to me that a greater recognition of the category "quasi-urban" would have made this argument easier to communicate.)

- - - - - - - - -

3) Eug wrote:

"Downtown Columbus was a few malls, a few hotels, and a bunch of office buildings . . . . Downtown Atlanta sucks too, but isn't quite as bad."

Benjamin Hemric writes:

Assuming this is Columbus, Ohio, I haven't really been to Columbus, Ohio (except again for a few minutes many, many years ago!), so can't really comment upon what its downtown is really like these days. I have also never been to Atlanta.

But I think the issue in general here is the one brought up previously by both scarberiankhatru and myself. There are some downtowns that are just temporarily "down on their luck" and thus not the downtowns that they originally were. But such areas are still basically urban because they retain some urbanity and the ABILITY to regenerate themselves; and then there are other downtowns that have actually been rebuilt so dramatically (and are under such strict zoning regulations, etc.) that they are effectively no longer truly urban, but are now more accurately understood as "quasi-urban."

Let me also emphasize (by reintroducing it here) something that was in my original post:

I think it's important to remember that these . . . are not fixed categories, as one type of area can naturally (in the absence of zoning) morph into another -- even Manhattan was rural at one time! [And even a "temporarily down" urban downtown can, over a period of time, regenerate itself with new start-up small businesses, loft housing, small theater groups, adaptively reused movie palaces, etc.]

- - - - - -

4) Eug wrote:

Others might just want to classify your Manhattan as "desirable urban" vs. "undesirable urban" in other cities . . . .

Benjamin Hemric writes:

The purpose of a taxonomy, I believe, is to classify in a useful way -- not to necessarily pass judgment upon one category or another. That's not the real point of a taxonomy, so it seems to me. The important thing is to be able to understand the real differences between various groupings so that one can have a useful discussion about them (where various groups of people can then express their own value judgments). You and I may not prefer suburbia, for examples, but it wouldn't be useful to just label them "the kind of areas I like" and "the kind of areas I don't like." More useful are terms like "urban" and "suburban" that describe their "objectively" agreed upon qualities.

And terms like "desirable" and "undesirable" not only introduce unnecessary subjective value judgments into the discussion, they also confuse rather than clarify the discussion. You and I may not like one kind of area that we find "undesirable," but other people may find it more "desirable." So what are the areas that are being discussed?!


- - - - - - -

5) Eug wrote:

" . . . for most people, ALL of these areas [e.g., D.C., Columbus, and Atlanta], are urban.

Benjamin writes:

While it is, of course, extremely important for a naming system to reflect people's perceptions, sometimes people's perceptions are "off." Just because some people may currently think of the museums and monuments around D.C.'s mall as urban, rather than quasi-urban, doesn't mean that it is accurate or true.

As a matter of fact, one reason they may think of this area as "urban" is because they have never been presented with the category "quasi-urban." Once they are presented with the category "quasi-urban," it's quite possible that they will say, "Ah ha! Of course, that's the word that I really wanted, but I just didn't know about yet."

- - - - - - - - - -

6) Eug wrote:

They [D.C., Columbus, Atlanta] just suck as urban areas. It seems to me you just want "urban" to mean "urban and interesting", but not all urban is interesting.

Benjamin Hemric writes:

Again, it really doesn't matter whether one personally prefers certain areas over others. The point is to be able to classify various groupings in a way that proves useful for discussion, study and enhanced understanding. A good classification system should have enough categories to distinguish between major functional groups. If different types of areas have genuine differences they should placed into different categories and not lumped together in the same category, separated only by subjective value judgments.

So, it seems to me that "quasi-urban' is a much better (more useful) category that "[personally speaking] uninteresting [to me]."

Fri., March 5, 2010, 11:12 p.m.
 

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