U.S. Congresswoman calls for high-speed rail linking Manhattan to Canadian cities

[MisterF]

After the last HSR study I'm skeptical that it'll ever happen. McGuinty and Charest were the driving forces behind it, and after it came out they suddenly changed their tune. Not to mention the study itself came to some highly questionable conclusions. It actually predicted lower ridership than the report that came out 15 years ago.

Paris to Bordeaux is about the same distance as Toronto to Montreal. That TGV trip costs a bit more than $100 and takes 3-3.5 hours. Driving from Toronto Montreal would be around 6 hours and about $40-$50 for gas if your car is not too big. However, I go to Montreal a few times a year with my family (4 people in a car) to visit my grandparents and other relatives, that means it would still be about $40-50 by car but $400-450 by train, and since neither my family or grandparents live right downtown, you could add 1-1.5 hours for getting to the train station, arriving a bit early to make sure we don't miss the train, and getting from Montreal's train station to our grandparents. It's easy to see that for us, taking HSR from Toronto to Montreal would make no sense whatsoever.

So basically, Toronto to Montreal HSR would be good for people travelling alone from core to core, and who are willing to pay $50 to save a couple hours of time and the hassle of driving, or people who don't have a car.

There's more to the cost of driving than the price of gas.

Unless you are offering service every 2 hours or less on various lines, going to be hard to compete with the airlines.

There's plenty of demand to have trains at much higher frequencies than two hours. These lines dominate market share wherever they're built and take huge numbers of riders from airlines.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It is nutty how long it takes to get from Toronto to Manhattan by train vs. car. In August I took the family on a cruise to Bermuda. We drove from Toronto on a Saturday morning and about nine hours later we were checked into our hotel on West 57th in Manhattan. Total transit cost for two adults and two kids under 12, round-trip, about US$280 in fuel, plus US$220 for parking ($20 a day).

Had we taken the train from Union to Penn Station it would have taken over thirteen hours and cost return CAD$774 including tax.

Now, if that cost was $500 return for family of four and got me there in 8 hours or less, now that I'd consider. Until then, Car is King.

 

[sjc]

Had we taken the train from Union to Penn Station it would have taken over thirteen hours and cost return CAD$774 including tax.

For that price, you could have flown and been there in a couple of hours. (Randomly picked date: Sept 27 Return Oct 17 Porter Airlines for three people CAD$778) EDIT: Admittedly, it depends a lot on the day.

I think if you bring Chicago into the scenario, and have the Chicago-New York trains run without a Canadian stop (or Canadian customs hassles), a high speed Northeast network makes a lot of sense.

They could have "through" cars (People going from US destinations to other US destinations) locked while in Canada so that nobody could get on and off. Anyone in the unlocked cars would go through customs at each border. A US Customs agent could ride with the train just to make sure (like they used to do on the VIA train through Maine).

 

[dowlingm]

I'd love to know what Amtrak gets out of operating NF NY to TO ON other than a headache. Swapping to VIA crews, the Whirlpool Bridge, the Welland Canal, slow track as far as Aldershot etc. etc. At least with Cascades and Adirondack there's no stopping between the border and the terminus. Does Canada even contribute to Amtrak's costs to run these services?

If I was a US/NY taxpayer I'd be looking at getting Schenectady-Buffalo closer to 110mph which would at least benefit other services like Lake Shore Limited. If developing the Toronto market is really what they want then they should be running Thruway buses to meet every Empire/LSL departure rather than relying on the Maple Leaf.

 

[Dan416]

So the New York-Toronto run has to swap crews but the New York-Montreal and Seattle-Vancouver runs don't?

 

[dowlingm]

The Maple Leaf doubles as a VIA service between Niagara and Toronto. There is no such arrangement for the other two.

 

[RocketAppliances]

Via BlogTO

A brief history of Toronto's high-speed TurboTrain

I had no idea this ever existed!

 

[nfitz]

Via BlogTO

A brief history of Toronto's high-speed TurboTrain

I had no idea this ever existed!

VIA ran them into the 1980s. They replaced them with the LRC equipment, that had the same operating speed, and did Montreal-Toronto in the same time.

The trains were a little impractical with the fixed length. And at about the time they got rid of them were problematic, as with the lack of doors between cars (so I recall), you couldn't create non-smoking cars, as then you would have to ban smoking on the entire train (shock, horror).

 

[Tewder]

For that price, you could have flown and been there in a couple of hours. (Randomly picked date: Sept 27 Return Oct 17 Porter Airlines for three people CAD$778) EDIT: Admittedly, it depends a lot on the day.

The flight may be 'a couple of hours' but the journey isn't. If you factor in the hassle to get the airport (GTA traffic), the fact you have to be at the airport at least an hour an a half before your flight and pre-clear customs etc, the flight itself, and the journey from the airport (whichever one) into Manhattan you are looking at an overall travel time of about 5 or 6 hours. This doesn't save you a huge amount of time over driving. Also, when you factor in what the airlines will charge you for luggage etc (especially if you are packing for a cruise) it is far more economical to drive... and at least you can then travel according to your own schedule and in greater comfort. I've done this many times, and many hotels in NYC will discount the parking at certain times or throw it in.

 

[nfitz]

... the journey from the airport (whichever one) into Manhattan you are looking at an overall travel time of about 5 or 6 hours.

Porter only flies into Newark, which is the easiest airport to get to Manhattan from, with frequent trains from the Airport train station to New York Penn Station.

I think 5-6 hours is a bit of an overestimate to get from a house, to Billy Bishop, to Newark, and to Penn Station. Recommened check-in at Billy Bishop is only 60 minutes before take off. No reason you can't be at Penn Station 60 minutes after you land. So that 3.5 hours from getting to the airport to getting to downtown Manhattan. If I went to visit my relatives in Manhattan it would be 4-hours door-to-door. It's a 9-hour drive if there's no traffic, and you don't stop much ... but I've never gotten through the tunnel or the George Washington with no traffic, or without a good sit-down meal at some point.

Though once you have 4 people in the car, driving is certainly cheaper ...

 

[Tewder]

There are many variables, to be true. It's just not always as cut and dried as you might think. My partner does it for work all the time and all you need is a flight delay (which happens very often) and the time savings can be minimal. If it's a family trip (with kids and lots of luggage), you are almost certainly better off hitting the road... parts of the drive are quite pretty too, so enjoy.

 

[nfitz]

There are many variables, to be true. It's just not always as cut and dried as you might think.

It isn't indeed. I know of more than one car trip has taken longer than a day with breakdowns ... and I scratch my head still at the gridlock I've seen in Stroudsburg.

 

[Tewder]

Perhaps you need a new car.

 

[gabe]

Had we taken the train from Union to Penn Station it would have taken over thirteen hours and cost return CAD$774 including tax.

Now, if that cost was $500 return for family of four and got me there in 8 hours or less, now that I'd consider. Until then, Car is King.

Yep, My friend drives to Buffalo and leaves the car with her family there and takes Amtrak. Return ticket total is $120 per person, and she is in NYC in 8 hours exactly vs 13 hours with VIA.

 

[nfitz]

Perhaps you need a new car.

LOL. I've never had a breakdown ... or at least nothing that couldn't get home. But I've heard several New York stories.

Yep, My friend drives to Buffalo and leaves the car with her family there and takes Amtrak. Return ticket total is $120 per person, and she is in NYC in 8 hours exactly vs 13 hours with VIA.

Hmm, that's an interesting thought.