TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[Dan416]

I think terminating the Sheppard subway at Vic Park or Agincourt, while a step in the right direction I guess, is symptomatic of Toronto thinking small. Why on earth would you not just finish the damn thing the way it was supposed to be built? Extending it one or two stops isn't going to improve ridership a hell of a lot. Extending it west to Downsview aka Sheppard West and east to STC, that at least give you a decently long subway. If it ain't going to STC, I don't see much point in extending it at all, because we're still left with the same problem, an unfinished stubway that doesn't really go anywhere.

And I wish some people would get their heads out of their asses about converting the Sheppard subway to LRT. Try getting the politicians to sell spending money to decrease capacity. Right.

 

[44 North]

If it ain't going to STC, I don't see much point in extending it at all, because we're still left with the same problem, an unfinished stubway that doesn't really go anywhere

Exactly. Leave the thing as is. It's already proven itself to be a costly waste. No point in heavily subsidizing several thousand TTC passengers at the expense of 1.5 million others. The TTC has more pressing capital projects than worrying about useless feeder lines to spur development along a crusty arterial.

I'm for keeping the strip malls, massage parlours, and Chinese restaurants along Sheppard.

Try getting the politicians to sell spending money to decrease capacity.

Increased ridership at the expense of lower capacity isn't all bad. The trains will still be half full. We need a politician with Ford's 'tell it like it is' charisma. But not mentally challenged, like Ford. That way people can grasp how much Sheppard's riders are costing the system. And how much Lastman cost the city and transit progress by starting the damn thing.

 

[LAz]

First of all, you need to find the Gravy to fund this line. Without that funding, the administration cannot get to the on deck position, let alone first base.

We gotta find a way. How does cutting public employee benefits, tiff districts, and slashing public school funding? Just gotta tighten the belt and hope that nobody turns blue. ^^ X(

 

[gweed123]

The problem with Vic Park extension might be a relatively large proportion of fixed costs (launch site and bus terminal).

Agincourt would be better than Warden or Vic Park, but the funding to get there would be harder to obtain.

It's all a balancing act. Does the increase in riders from extending it to Warden vs extending it to Agincourt warrant the extra km or so? if the ridership doesn't, does the network connectivity? (That's an argument that's frequently used for Sheppard West).

There really is no simple answer to this question, because it is very subjective to what you consider "warranted". Personally, I think the 3 separate smaller extensions each have their own rationale:

From Don Mills to Victoria Park, the rationale is for relieving bus congestion over the 404, and for directly serving the business park located on the northeast side of the 401 and the 404.

From Victoria Park to Warden, the rationale is to extend past Victoria Park to avoid building a massive bus terminal on quite valuable (and developed) land. Land around Warden & Sheppard is easier to come by. It also would provide better access to the Warden bus, which is a pretty busy surface route.

Extending to Agincourt is mainly for network connectivity. You would have the Stouffville GO, Sheppard Subway, Sheppard East LRT/BRT, and a whole host of bus routes. Adding the Sheppard subway to that mix would make Agincourt the most important transit hub in Scarborough, even more important than STC.

Do each of these extensions have decent rationales? Absolutely. Are they worth the cost? Debatable. Are they a priority? No. Once the Stouffville line is electrified, then the value of extending the Sheppard Subway will be more clear.

 

[Dan416]

Exactly. Leave the thing as is. It's already proven itself to be a costly waste. No point in heavily subsidizing several thousand TTC passengers at the expense of 1.5 million others. The TTC has more pressing capital projects than worrying about useless feeder lines to spur development along a crusty arterial.

I'm for keeping the strip malls, massage parlours, and Chinese restaurants along Sheppard.

I don't think all of Transit City was stupid, but this part surely was.

As for keeping all that lovely stuff, we know what a subway would bring: condos and density, which seems to be what Places to Grow is all about.

Increased ridership at the expense of lower capacity isn't all bad. The trains will still be half full. We need a politician with Ford's 'tell it like it is' charisma. But not mentally challenged, like Ford. That way people can grasp how much Sheppard's riders are costing the system. And how much Lastman cost the city and transit progress by starting the damn thing.

Exactly how would lower capacity increase ridership? Now I've heard everything.

Clearly the solution is to halve the number of trains on Sheppard, and then more people will use it. Yes, the logic is sound.

 

[Tulse]

Exactly how would lower capacity increase ridership? Now I've heard everything.

Clearly the solution is to halve the number of trains on Sheppard, and then more people will use it. Yes, the logic is sound.

Maybe if the trains look more crowded, people will think it's popular...

 

[Amy Rose]

Exactly how would lower capacity increase ridership? Now I've heard everything.

Lower capacity increases ridership, as in 20km of LRT+ conversion brings a lot more riders than an additional 10-15ish km of subway, unless you are like one of the self entitled subway brats that want it all done in gold even though we don't have the money and refuse to settle with silver.

 

[44 North]

Exactly how would lower capacity increase ridership?

K, my comment got taken out of context somewhat. I meant increasing ridership/lowering capacity by using a continuous SELRT via a retrofitted Sheppard Subway tunnel. I think Metrolinx called it Option 2 for a Finch/Sheppard LRT. Although costly, I think it could have been a great showcase for what LRT could do in this city.

even though we don't have the money and refuse to settle with silver.

Exactly. People along Sheppard want gold while those in Old Toronto have spent 30+ years with tarnished bronze.

 

[Dan416]

K, my comment got taken out of context somewhat. I meant increasing ridership/lowering capacity by using a continuous SELRT via a retrofitted Sheppard Subway tunnel. I think Metrolinx called it Option 2 for a Finch/Sheppard LRT. Although costly, I think it could have been a great showcase for what LRT could do in this city.

Costly and impractical. It wasn't recommended for a reason. The optics of it are just horrible. It'll never happen.

The Toronto of yesterday had foresight (Prince Edward Viaduct).

The Toronto of today is falling behind on yesterday, and not even thinking of the future.

Exactly. People along Sheppard want gold while those in the core have spent 30+ years with tarnished bronze.

IIRC the core has the Yonge, University and Bloor lines. Not to mention GO lines from every which way.

Really though, I think the people on Sheppard just want what they were promised. They want their subway finished!

 

[Justin10000]

Lower capacity increases ridership, as in 20km of LRT+ conversion brings a lot more riders than an additional 10-15ish km of subway, unless you are like one of the self entitled subway brats that want it all done in gold even though we don't have the money and refuse to settle with silver.

Oh... He is one of those self-entitled subway brats that want it all done in gold...who lives in Mississauga! Why someone from 'Sauga is obsessed with the Sheppard Subway is beyond me..

 

[44 North]

the core has the Yonge, University and Bloor lines. Not to mention GO lines from every which way.

It also has 300,000/day stuck on slow moving streetcars.

Really though, I think the people on Sheppard just want what they were promised. They want their subway finished!

The same sentiments are felt by those along Eglinton West. Unfortunately for them, it's another 20 years before their promised subway reaches them.


The Old City of Toronto had foresight. Since Metro, however, the city has continually been forced to cater to suburban desires. That's why the only subway system improvements have been extensions and feeder lines; further watering down service.

 

[Palma]

Sheppard subway Extension

[QUOTE
IIRC the core has the Yonge, University and Bloor lines. Not to mention GO lines from every which way.
/QUOTE]

And who (living in Toronto) is riding GO?

 

[nfitz]

And who (living in Toronto) is riding GO?

Do you need names? There'd be a lot of them ... more GO Train stations in Toronto than any other city. By my count there's 19 GO Train station in Toronto. What's Mississauga got ... 9? Brampton ... 3?

Not necessarily the biggest stations in Toronto, but certainly many users.

 

[Rainforest]

Lower capacity increases ridership, as in 20km of LRT+ conversion brings a lot more riders than an additional 10-15ish km of subway ...

Not necessarily; subway can divert many riders from parallel routes, whereas LRT will mostly serve those on Sheppard.

... that want it all done in gold even though we don't have the money and refuse to settle with silver.

The cost of converting the existing Sheppard subway to LRT was estimated to be $670 million; this is not a small amount, especially if we don't have money.

 

[Rainforest]

I think terminating the Sheppard subway at Vic Park or Agincourt, while a step in the right direction I guess, is symptomatic of Toronto thinking small. Why on earth would you not just finish the damn thing the way it was supposed to be built? Extending it one or two stops isn't going to improve ridership a hell of a lot. Extending it west to Downsview aka Sheppard West and east to STC, that at least give you a decently long subway. If it ain't going to STC, I don't see much point in extending it at all, because we're still left with the same problem, an unfinished stubway that doesn't really go anywhere.

I respectfully disagree, and actually see a better benefit-to-cost ratio for a short extension.

An short extension along Sheppard East (say, to Warden) would not only serve the riders currently using the 85 Sheppard and 190 STC routes, but also attract a fair number of riders from the parallel routes. Finch East will no longer need 70'' headways approaching Yonge at peak. Also, the utilization of the existing subway segment (Don Mills to Yonge) will improve if more riders are streamed through it.

In contrast, the eastmost section of subway (from where it leaves Sheppard till STC) would, basically, replace bus 190. It could get some additional riders because of the greater appeal of subway. But there is no major passenger flow towards STC from north-west, and I don't see the subway generating such a flow.