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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

Yes he can. The road tolls will need support in the future. DRL support as well. This is a long game.
Agreed. He has lots to work with.

That said, he says he supports it, but he hasn't said if he would actively fight for it, like he did with the SSE. So who knows.

As for "Yonge can't possibly handle a Shepard extension," you really think council gives a damn? They'll do what they want, then change their minds five times. Of course, the province probably would not lend support to the extension, so it might not even get that far if it does come up.
 
Agreed. He has lots to work with.

That said, he says he supports it, but he hasn't said if he would actively fight for it, like he did with the SSE. So who knows.

As for "Yonge can't possibly handle a Shepard extension," you really think council gives a damn? They'll do what they want, then change their minds five times. Of course, the province probably would not lend support to the extension, so it might not even get that far if it does come up.
I can see wynne getting desperate if the polls are tied sadly. I just want this to be closed so we can move on.
 
Yonge can't possibly handle a Shepard extension....

Yonge can't handle the increased riders from a Sheppard East LRT as well
Unless TTC drastically alter the bus service in northern Scarborough, Yonge can certainly handle the increased riders from SELRT. The LRT will only be replacing the current 85, shuttling passengers onto line 4.
(If a line 4 extension means the long DRL's construction be expedited, that's not bad either. )


On the other hand, Yonge will not be able to handle the increased riders from a FWLRT extension to Yonge.
 
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Then why did we go ahead with Transit City planning, which included LRT everywhere, but not a single new way of getting to the core.


In 2007 we invested in Toronto Rocket train sets and ATO which was, and still is, expected to handle Yonge Line demand until around 2030. Demand sits at 31,000 pphpd today and ATO has a capacity of 36,000 pphpd. Demand we will increase by 6,600 pphpd over the next 14 years, so the Relief Line needs to be completed in that timeframe, which we're still on track to achieve.

Since we know 10 years ago that these improvements would handle Yonge Line demand, the DRL wasn't as critical an issue back then. What we did have was numberous suburban bus routes operating at capacity, that collectively moved a lot more people than the Relief Line would have. So it's reasonable that providing relief to those commuters would've been the more immediate concern, than providing additional relief to the Yonge Line.
 
Why is there no discussion about extending the Sheppard line west to meet the Spadina extension? At a distance of slightly more than 4km, it doesn't seem unreasonable and it would create another transit hub at Downsview.
 
Why is there no discussion about extending the Sheppard line west to meet the Spadina extension? At a distance of slightly more than 4km, it doesn't seem unreasonable and it would create another transit hub at Downsview.

Oh, there's been plenty of discussion about it...

I support it, and I think most people by looking at the map can agree that it makes a lot of sense, but where do we find a few billion dollars to do it? And there are far, far more critical transit projects that need money--the relief line, new subway cars for Line 1 so that the TRs can move to Line 2 for the Scarborough subway extension due to the need for ATC, accessible subway stations+second exits, Eglinton East and West LRTs, Waterfront West and East LRTs, Sheppard East LRT, new streetcars for the existing downtown streetcar network, new buses, a new bus garage, better maintenance of existing vehicles, better service on streetcar/subway/bus routes across the city, streetcar and subway track and power maintenance, enhancements to Presto, two-hour timed transfers, discounted fares for people with low income, co-fares/fare integration with GO and other agencies, and more. Those, in my opinion, are all of significantly higher priority than connecting Sheppard-Yonge to Sheppard West station...and keep in mind that project wouldn't take the place of one of these other things, it would take the place of several, or as much as half of that list.

When you look at it that way, unfortunately it is rather unreasonable. I really want that connection made, but until we get all of these other critical things done and have a properly functioning transit network on the existing portions of the system, it's foolish to spend tons of money on something like this. I think if so much money had to be wasted on the Scarborough extension, this would honestly have been a better use of that money--though still a waste--but alas, we chose to dump money into that pit instead.

Also, once Line 5 opens there will be a frequent, high-speed, underground connection between Eglinton W (or whatever they're calling it now) and Eglinton, which is much further north than Line 2 and a bit further north+faster than the 512 streetcar. That's a significant improvement for people who need to go east/west in the northern portions of Line 1.
 
Why is there no discussion about extending the Sheppard line west to meet the Spadina extension? At a distance of slightly more than 4km, it doesn't seem unreasonable and it would create another transit hub at Downsview.
A northern connection of the 2 sections of Line 1 via Sheppard would be nice and useful. However, the time saving benefits are not enough to justify an extension that will have little ridership and cost billions.
 
Oh, there's been plenty of discussion about it...

I think the only public talk has been from Councillor Pasternak, and he is only going through the motions by periodically asking for it to be studied.
If he was serious about it, he would hold a workshop with the BIA and contractors to get agreement to build the line cut-and-cover, interlined with Spadina, and do it for less than $1B.
 
Since we know 10 years ago that these improvements would handle Yonge Line demand, the DRL wasn't as critical an issue back then.

Sure it was! The DRL has been an issue since the 1980s. It just wasn't a hot issue because it would've been a political hot potato - opposed in the east and west ends because of gentrification/construction concerns. There's also the fact that the DRL's backers tend to support the suburban LRTs as well, so they didn't want to criticize the glaring lack of anything between King Street and Bloor (which, to be honest, could've just been an Eglinton-style LRT subway along Pape, Queen/King, and through the west end & junction to connect to Jane Street.
 
Sure it was! The DRL has been an issue since the 1980s. It just wasn't a hot issue because it would've been a political hot potato - opposed in the east and west ends because of gentrification/construction concerns. There's also the fact that the DRL's backers tend to support the suburban LRTs as well, so they didn't want to criticize the glaring lack of anything between King Street and Bloor (which, to be honest, could've just been an Eglinton-style LRT subway along Pape, Queen/King, and through the west end & junction to connect to Jane Street.

The LRT option didn't even show up until the 2007 with Transit City. The SRT was originally a streetcar option, but changed to it's current intermediate capacity transit system configuration, opening in 1985.
 
The LRT option didn't even show up until the 2007 with Transit City.

I'm aware, but there's been concern about the need for a DRL if more transit is built feeding into the Yonge Line since the 80s. That's why it was proposed in Network 2011 - before the full Sheppard Subway (Victoria Park to Scarborough Centre) was built, there would need to be a way for Bloor-Danforth passengers to avoid Bloor-Yonge station.
 
A northern connection of the 2 sections of Line 1 via Sheppard would be nice and useful. However, the time saving benefits are not enough to justify an extension that will have little ridership and cost billions.

The biggest benefit for the sheppard west extension is for a redundancy in the system. if there's an issue on Yonge people can move over to Spadina and come back across on Sheppard, and Vice Versa. Sure it might take some extra time to complete a trip when that happens, but it sure as hell provides way more capacity than shuttle buses operating in mixed traffic. Not every improvement simply has to be about time-savings.
 
The biggest benefit for the sheppard west extension is for a redundancy in the system. if there's an issue on Yonge people can move over to Spadina and come back across on Sheppard, and Vice Versa. Sure it might take some extra time to complete a trip when that happens, but it sure as hell provides way more capacity than shuttle buses operating in mixed traffic. Not every improvement simply has to be about time-savings.

DRL long would have provided far more redundancy without building a line that doesn't have much use value on its' own. It's a vaguely nice to have in a system that has too many "must haves".

AoD
 

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