News   Apr 26, 2024
Sustainability Month: ReHousing — A Multiplex How-To Guide Explores What’s Possible in the Yellowbelt
 2.3K     4 
News   Apr 26, 2024
Mattamy's Soleil and Mile & Creek Condos in Milton’s Flourishing Landscape
 549     0 
News   Apr 26, 2024
Galleria on the Park Soon to Welcome First Residents of Masterplanned Community
 1.1K     1 

TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

Interesting thing about this election is that Harper did get a lot of big city votes. That helped win him the election but now means that instead of having to just satisfy the rural and small city folks he has to start rewarding the cities as well. The new urban MPs aren't going to be willing to bear the brunt of all the cities dissatisfactions. They want to be seen at all the ribbon cutting ceremonies and nothing looks better than cutting ribbons at the entrance of a shiny new subway system.
Also, despite all the bitching of Harper {and I can't stand the guy}, I will give him credit where it's due. He has been the best PM this country's urban areas have seen in over 40 years. The public transit systems have got at least some ongoing federal support, there has been record amounts invested in urban infrastructure, and he brought in the transit pass tax credit. For all the touchy feelie green talk of the Liberals they gave nothing to the cities for anything. Harper may play hillbilly but he is definately an urban boy...................the smallest city he has ever lived in for any length of time is Calgary. The City of Calgary was begging for LRT expansion funds and they got them as did Toronto.
Harper has shown to be the only PM in over a generation who can even engage in an intelligent conversation about urban issues. He is the only one who put his money where his mouth was from urban transit, low cost housing, water sanitation upgrades, roads, community centres, and playgrounds.........he funded it. Yes, a lot was just stimulus but he put in some long term investments as well.
I went to the Liberal Canada election website and no where was the word "transit" even mentioned.........................not once. Despite the Liberal party's traditional reliance on the hard core urban vote they provided little in return. In terms of purely urban issues, Harper and the Conservatives have been more generous to cities than any time in a half a century. With Layton and all his new urban MPs applying pressure we may find the renaisance of our great cities may happen under a Conservative Harper government.
 
Conservative governments and voters causing a boost in new subways???

Why not throw in a DRL or two while they're at it.
 
Maybe now that Ford and Harper are buddies they will support urban issues... like the gun registry and early childhood development programs too. The new conservative ads won't start with "Canada is, an always has been, our country" and instead will instead start with "Canada is relatively new country, the land of the native peoples, and a large percentage of us weren't even born here." He will cancel the fighter contract realizing that peacekeeping missions that protect innocent civilians don't occur from 30,000 feet in the air, and he will embrace love not war. Conservatives will embrace the gay and lesbian community and it will be happy times for all.
 
Yeah right, Federal Conservatives have never invested more than token amounts of money in public transit. In fact, several members of Harper's cabinet e.g. Clement and Flaherty were Ontario MPPs under Mike Harris around the time when the Eglinton subway was killed and the Sheppard subway shortened. On the other hand federal Liberals have not invested much in public transit either. Provincial Liberals have been much much better on this issue though.
 
andrewpmk said:
Yeah right, Federal Conservatives have never invested more than token amounts of money in public transit. In fact, several members of Harper's cabinet e.g. Clement and Flaherty were Ontario MPPs under Mike Harris around the time when the Eglinton subway was killed and the Sheppard subway shortened. On the other hand federal Liberals have not invested much in public transit either. Provincial Liberals have been much much better on this issue though.
Click to expand...

Harper and Ford definitely wouldn't just invest in transit, but they would spend any amount of money to win votes. Building a subway falls under that category, unlike more cost-effective improvements such as transit priority and cue jump lanes.
 
Wouldnt be surprised one bit to see the Tories kick in money for Sheppard - the heart land of the Tories and Harper... Calgary... wants (needs) to build a subway too, and there expecting some federal funds for it too.
 
I agree that Ford and Harper could well be a good one for infrastructure funding in Toronto. Harper has shown that he likes to distribute pork based on whether people voted for him, so the fact that the Sheppard extension will run through three Conservative ridings should make it quite attractive.

One of the things that really disappoints me about Ford's new administration is that they don't seem to have even taken a glance at whether the costs of these new subway lines are reasonable. Vancouver was able to build an 18 km rapid transit line, mostly underground with a comparable capacity to the new Eglinton line, for $2 billion. The Laval extension also cost a fraction of what the TTC is claiming subways cost here. That's not to mention the costs achieved in first world places like Madrid. Despite his much-boasted penny-pinching, Ford doesn't seem remotely interested in cost control in an area where there are real opportunities.
 
unimaginative2 said:
I agree that Ford and Harper could well be a good one for infrastructure funding in Toronto. Harper has shown that he likes to distribute pork based on whether people voted for him, so the fact that the Sheppard extension will run through three Conservative ridings should make it quite attractive.

One of the things that really disappoints me about Ford's new administration is that they don't seem to have even taken a glance at whether the costs of these new subway lines are reasonable. Vancouver was able to build an 18 km rapid transit line, mostly underground with a comparable capacity to the new Eglinton line, for $2 billion. The Laval extension also cost a fraction of what the TTC is claiming subways cost here. That's not to mention the costs achieved in first world places like Madrid. Despite his much-boasted penny-pinching, Ford doesn't seem remotely interested in cost control in an area where there are real opportunities.
Click to expand...

Should be remembered that the tunnels could be a single large bore in which two narrow trains could run through, or two smaller bores in which two wider trains could run through. They are digging two bores to accommodate a larger heavy rail train, not a narrow light rail train.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Should be remembered that the tunnels could be a single large bore in which two narrow trains could run through, or two smaller bores in which two wider trains could run through. They are digging two bores to accommodate a larger heavy rail train, not a narrow light rail train.
Click to expand...

The tunnels are large and expensive because they will have overhead wire, not because they are subway-compatible.

The Eglinton tunnel will have a 6m diameter, compared to 5.2m for the Sheppard subway and 5.4m for the Spadina Extension. They rejected the option of using a single large tunnel because it would be even more expensive.
 
The city issued a tender last week for financing the Sheppard Subway extensions:

Preliminary Capital Financing Plan for Proposed Sheppard Subway Extensions

My favourite clause is that the plan will include the following in the plan: "The total amount of capital funding that the private investors would be prepared to provide in return for the right to the future project-related revenue streams identified below without any guarantee from the City that the forecast revenue timing and amounts will be realized".
 
nfitz said:
The city issued a tender last week for financing the Sheppard Subway extensions:

Preliminary Capital Financing Plan for Proposed Sheppard Subway Extensions

My favourite clause is that the plan will include the following in the plan: "The total amount of capital funding that the private investors would be prepared to provide in return for the right to the future project-related revenue streams identified below without any guarantee from the City that the forecast revenue timing and amounts will be realized".
Click to expand...

Translation: Give us money, but we're not sure when you're going to get it back.

As Kevin from Dragon's Den says "ok, so where's the part where I make money?". A private investor will NEVER go for this project, unless there is a guaranteed payback on principal PLUS a few percent. The only business people who will go for this are:

a) really dumb, in which case a fool and his money soon go separate ways
b) a friend of Rob Ford, in which case the two will likely work out some kind of a deal that will end up screwing taxpayers royally, but will make one (or both) of them very rich
 
The tender says "The plan will assume that the incremental tax revenues arising from the construction of the proposed Sheppard subway extension corridors as well as from the construction of the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown line can be applied towards funding the capital costs of the Sheppard subway extension projects. "

This is new, isn't it? In other words, the Fords want to pledge property tax revenue from all over the city to pay for Sheppard. The notion that public money would not go into this white elephant is simply a lie.
 
It's money they would make from the added tax-revenues of the new extensions/ lines. So technically it is "new" money, and will not be money taken away from existing residents, but from the new developments on the proposed lines.
 
Last edited:
The idea is that if property values rise along the ECLRT in future, then the additional property tax generated would be used to finance Sheppard. Whether the future growth in property values in midtown will be caused by the ECLRT or will just be natural growth, it will NOT be caused by a Sheppard subway. So we are talking about City of Toronto property tax revenues that will be paid by Toronto residents in future and which could finance city services. But instead the Fords want to give that money to the private sector to pay back an investment in the Sheppard subway.

Please tell me again how this is something other than public tax revenues being spent on the Sheppard subway.

Then, I'd like to invite you to play with me a little game I call Three Card Monte. :)
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top