TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[nfitz]

Well the Chong reprot went to the Executive Committee, and they seem to have gone with a motion that "That the City Manager report back to the Executive Committee with recommendations on a process to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the Sheppard Subway.".

So that's a request for a plan on a plan to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the subway. Now this plan is due 2 days before the special full council meeting to decide what to do.

I think I just found the gravy!

 

[sixrings]

Well the Chong reprot went to the Executive Committee, and they seem to have gone with a motion that "That the City Manager report back to the Executive Committee with recommendations on a process to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the Sheppard Subway.".

So that's a request for a plan on a plan to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the subway. Now this plan is due 2 days before the special full council meeting to decide what to do.

I think I just found the gravy!

i know im in the minority but if sheppard going to get expanded i cant see how that makes more financial sense then completing the eglinton line underground and im not even an advocate for eglinton underground.

 

[Rainforest]

i know im in the minority but if sheppard going to get expanded i cant see how that makes more financial sense then completing the eglinton line underground and im not even an advocate for eglinton underground.

A surface/subway option on Eglinton does not introduce a transfer, as same LRT vehicles run through all sections.

On Sheppard, a surface LRT line necessitates a transfer at Don Mills.

 

[sixrings]

A surface/subway option on Eglinton does not introduce a transfer, as same LRT vehicles run through all sections.

On Sheppard, a surface LRT line necessitates a transfer at Don Mills.

again if they convert the subway to lrt there is no transfer and its cheaper over all to get from downsview to the zoo

 

[nfitz]

i know im in the minority but if sheppard going to get expanded i cant see how that makes more financial sense then completing the eglinton line underground and im not even an advocate for eglinton underground.

Complete Sheppard as subway ... I agree. If throwing away almost $2-billion for 6 km of tunnel on Eglinton that isn't needed is a waste, throwing $1-billion for 2 km of tunnel on Sheppard that has even lower ridership makes no sense.

I don't think you are in the minority on that one. But there's no indication that will be the decision at the March 21st council meeting.

 

[LAz]

Sorry to all those anti-subway lrt fanatics... but this is a done deal.

Thought Miller's authoritarian LRT fanaticism was all okay? Now you are getting your own medicine.

Enjoy...

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhal...-subway-expansion-dream#.TznWDIcpWT8.facebook

Mayor Ford’s executive pushes ahead with subway expansion dream

Published 13 minutes ago

David Rider Urban Affairs Bureau Chief

Mayor Rob Ford’s executive committee has voted to push ahead with plans for a Sheppard subway extension.

Monday’s vote came five days after a specially called meeting at which city council largely derailed Ford’s subway vision with a 25-18 endorsement of a return to a light rail plan.

While explicitly confirming support for a partially buried LRT on Eglinton Ave. and a surface line on Finch Ave., council stopped short of completely dashing Ford’s multi-billion-dollar dream of extending the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Town Centre primarily through private investment.

It authorized creation of an expert panel, including former mayor David Crombie, Ford’s point man on Sheppard subway financing Gordon Chong, and U of T transit expert Eric Miller, to report back on Sheppard options by March 21. They meet for the first time Friday.

Ford has dismissed council’s vote as “irrelevant†and is lobbying the public and the province to ignore it and proceed with his plan for a buried Eglinton LRT and a Sheppard subway.

Members of executive, after hearing Chong’s defence of his report advocating subways, and listening to visiting councillors attack him for relying heavily on a 20-year-old environmental assessment, sided firmly with Ford and subways.

“It is time to stop thinking the only part of the city that deserves good rapid transit is the downtown,†said Councillor David Shiner (Ward 24 Willowdale).

Norm Kelly (Ward 40 Scarborough Agincourt) said council is thinking small by only considering what it can finance from the province’s promised $8.4 billion.

“What we need in this debate is what Steve Jobs brought to Apple,†Kelly said.

Ford’s allies approved his motion to have city manager Joe Pennachetti report back with “recommendations on a process to move forward with the development of a plan to complete the Sheppard subway.â€

Pennachetti is also tasked by council with reporting back on the findings of the expert panel, which includes LRT advocates.

Councillor Doug Ford told reporters that the public pressure campaign he and Mayor Rob Ford are launching will be called Save our Subways, or S.O.S. As well as personal appearances, they hope to open an office and use mass emails and phone calls to lobby the public and pressure councillors who voted against the mayor’s subway plan and Premier Dalton McGuinty, who controls $8.4 billion in promised transit funding.

Council Adam Vaughan (Ward 20 Trinity-Spadina) called Chong’s report fatally flawed, saying it relies on 20-year-old projections, most of which were proven wrong in a 2011 review by the TTC.

Executive also approved Councillor Michelle Berardinetti’s motion asking staff for a report on using incentives to entice retailers to donate proceeds from the five-cent mandatory plastic bag fee to the city’s fight against the emerald ash borer bug thinning Toronto’s tree canopy. The committee rejected Councillor Paul Ainslie’s motion to look at ways to scrap the bag fee altogether.

 

[EnviroTO]

From this you get certainty that the Sheppard subway will happen? Under Miller city council voted on the plan, funding was secured for the first half of that plan, and prerequisite construction started... and that somehow compares to a plan council hasn't voted for, funding doesn't exist for, and no progress is expected to be made on any improvements in the corridor for at least 5 years if magic money shows up? That is similar?

 

[MetroMan]

Sorry to all those anti-subway lrt fanatics... but this is a done deal.

Thought Miller's authoritarian LRT fanaticism was all okay? Now you are getting your own medicine.

Enjoy...

http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhal...-subway-expansion-dream#.TznWDIcpWT8.facebook

You clearly don't know what the Executive Committee does and what powers it holds. It's a preparatory mechanism, with no final authority on matters of any importance. City Council reigns supreme. A majority of councillors voted to implement Eglinton, the SRT and Finch as per Transit City and to adopt the Sheppard alternative that the panel of experts concludes is the best one.

It is that body that will decide the fate of Sheppard, not Ford's executive. If a viable funding format and subway plan is recommended, then excellent, I don't think you will find anybody on this forum who doesn't want subways if we can build them. It's the pie-in-the-sky unicorn dream world that Ford lives in that we oppose. It's irresponsible and will set transit in Toronto back 20 years or more. Ford has no subway plan. He's rejecting the funding schemes of his own appointed advisor. It's a done deal alright: Ford is officially insane.

That Ford continues to pursue a contradictory path suggests that he very much does not respect City Council, City Hall and Democracy in general. The executive committee's findings are what is irrelevant because Ford does not have the support on Council to pass it. His contempt for the institution of City Council is ensuring that his support will lessen even further.

 

[Tulse]

I don't think you will find anybody on this forum who doesn't want subways if we can build them. It's the pie-in-the-sky unicorn dream world that Ford lives in that we oppose.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Everyone wants subways -- they are fast, they are high capacity, they are comfortable, their stations are out of the weather, and they don't interfere with street traffic. But they are also hugely expensive both to build and to maintain, which is why most people also realize that for many transit routes subways aren't appropriate or practical.

It's absurd to say opponents of Ford's plan don't like or want subways -- what we want is fiscal responsibility, which is an odd thing to have to promote to an alleged conservative.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes, I want a subway - it's called DRL. If Ford want to be "just like London or Paris", a new line from the suburbs right into downtown would be the way to go.

AoD

 

[JoeParez]

Yes, I want a subway - it's called DRL. If Ford want to be "just like London or Paris", a new line from the suburbs right into downtown would be the way to go.

AoD

Not only that AoD - but "just like London or Paris" to build an efficient transit network using all technologies available (Subway, LRT/Tram/Bus.. etc).

 

[gweed123]

I think the alternative funding schemes that the Chong Report has in it will be necessary if the subway option is chosen.

This on it's own makes me want it, mainly because I want to see Rob Ford forced to support road tolls if he wants his subway pet project built.

If they can generate enough money from road tolls, parking levees, and a vehicle registration tax, I say go ahead and build it, because it's very likely that all of those measures would be permanent, and could be used in a few years to help fund the DRL. Why do I think they'll be permanent? Because if there's one thing that governments are addicted to, it's revenue. Chopping a billion dollar (or even higher) revenue stream like road tolls would be like a heroine addict trying to quit cold turkey. Ain't gonna happen, unless you get a really strong willed person in the Mayor's chair who's hell bent on denying revenue (aka Ford v2.0).

Realistically, a few hundred million from road tolls each year (assuming implemented in the next couple of years) would be enough to entire fund the City's part of Sheppard by the time the line opens. But this would mean that the funding mechanism would still be in place, which would mean the city would start looking for other infrastructure projects to fund using that money. By that point the Yonge Extension will be at least underway, which will mean the DRL will be vaulted up the priority list.

I sent a message to Adam Vaughan on the weekend, asking him to please consider putting forward a motion to study the implementation of road tolls, as recommended in the Chong Report. I recommend that everyone on here do the same (maybe not Vaughan specifically, but other councillors that would be willing to lend an ear).

If we get enough people to see the opportunity in this, I think it could get some legs. And by opportunity I mean that there probably has never been a better time to push for this. A pro-subway and pro-car Mayor wants to build a subway pet project, but has no way to fund it. A report that he himself commissioned is recommending road tolls. It would be foolish for those on the left not to take this opportunity to propose road tolls under the guise of "we're just trying to help Mayor Ford get his subway dream realized".

This is the only time likely in the next decade where road tolls with gather at least a lukewarm reception on the right, because it will be the only time that a politician on the right actually needs to consider them in order to save political face.

 

[Dan416]

I would love to see Ford support the new funding mechanisms.

Unfortunately it seems we end up with extremists on both sides (Ford & Co. who want absolutely everything underground, vs those who think everything should be at-grade like a streetcar unless it's not possible).

I'd agree with Ford's side as a matter of principle, but realistically we need to save some money so I'm fine with some LRTs being above-ground, as long as they're fast and work like a REAL LRT (like Calgary) and not faux LRT (Spadina, St. Clair).

 

[BurlOak]

This cannot be emphasized enough. Everyone wants subways -- they are fast, they are high capacity, they are comfortable, their stations are out of the weather, and they don't interfere with street traffic. But they are also hugely expensive both to build and to maintain, which is why most people also realize that for many transit routes subways aren't appropriate or practical.

It's absurd to say opponents of Ford's plan don't like or want subways -- what we want is fiscal responsibility, which is an odd thing to have to promote to an alleged conservative.

With fiscal responsibility and building the most transit for a limited amount of money in mind, is the Sheppard East LRT that important. Just tunnelling under the 404 eats up almost half the cost of the entire LRT line. Would a BRT be a more economical solution. Maybe the debate at this time should be between LRT and BRT, and not LRT and subway. Maybe this would address the immediate need and the Sheppard subway could be built when the volumes increase a bit.

 

[Rainforest]

If Ford wants to build subways, he should stop whining and try to seize the opportunity to build a Sheppard subway extension.

His opponents gave him a decent chance: $1 billion allocated to the Sheppard East corridor, and a panel tasked with choosing the optimal course. If you are a true leader, then roll up your sleeves. Analyze the Chong's report and present a business case. Pledge $200 million in extra funds from the City (and cut the BS about a subway that costs nothing to the taxpayers; that does not happen). Try to get further 20% in 3P financing (that's a rather conservative number, assuming the Chong's report is worth the paper it is printed on). That gets us to $1.45 billion, and probably enough to extend the subway to Warden. If the Federal government decides to contribute, it might even be possible to reach the Agincourt GO station.

The subway construction will take 7-8 years. That's enough to seek some more funding for BRT along the rest of Sheppard. If it works, then we get a subway / BRT corridor that, IMO, is better than SELRT from the network perspective.

Of course, Rob Ford is not that kind of leader. He will rather start a messy public campaign to advertize his support of subways, without actually building any subways.