Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

That may be possible, but will require custom (high floor) vehicles and a different surface stop design (accessibility).

This option certainly has its merits for the Sheppard corridor, in terms of cost vs functionality. It would be interesting to see a detailed cost estimate, compared to low-floor Sheppard LRT currently on the table.

No need to do that. Just spend the money to convert the line to Transit City standards. The only reason politicians are reluctant to do this, is because it would admit failure on their part. So instead, they'll do the ridiculous bit of chopping up Sheppard with bus-subway-lrt-bus. When I stay in Malvern and go to work in Downsview, I have to drive because the TTC will take anywhere from 30 mins to a full hour over my car. Changing part of the bus ride to LRT will make a bit of a difference, but not much overall with the transfer at Don Mills. People who don't use these corridors just don't get what a pain-in-the-behind these transfers are.

Ditto, all those going on about the Kennedy transfer. The reason so many people are opposed to it is because the bulk of riders aren't terminating at Kennedy. I'd say a good quarter or more are going to SC/McCowan, with another substantial chunk disembarking at Lawrence. So the subway extension has been seen as the obvious solution. The SRT has always been viewed as a sort of temporary solution to most people. Even losing stops isn't relevant. McCowan and Ellesmere are damn close to Scarborough Centre. You could shut those down and re-direct the traffic to SC with barely any noticeable difference in ridership. All these out-of-scarborough LRT advocates don't get that. Personal example: When in university, I used to take the Progress/Tapscott bus from home. I used to transfer at McCowan, instead of SC, just because I wanted to get a seat, even though the bus was terminating at SC. On the way home, I used to transfer to the bus at SC, because the bus was starting there. Quite a few routes like that. which makes many of us see the number of stops as a useless discussion in practical terms.

There is a way out of the subway debate. Coffey1 has pointed out. Make the LRT plan user-friendly. To me this means:

1) Sheppard converted to LRT and extended right to the zoo, not terminating at Morningside like before.
2) SLRT run right to Malvern, not cut short at Sheppard/Progress (this will eliminate or shorten a lof of bus rides). I'd go so far as to say they should extend to Neilson/Morningside.
3) Eglinton run as a through service at Kennedy to continue on as the Scarborough-Malvern LRT, terminating at Morningside.

The current proposal on the table is a mess for Scarborough. Forced transfer at Kennedy or Don Mills from virtually every direction in Scarborough. With (still) relatively long bus rides to connect to the LRT. If I'm going to sit on a bus for a while, and still have to transfer anyway, why would I not vote for the subway. The same bus will take me there. And I'll have one less transfer. Once, people understand the thought process, they'll get why so many Scarborough residents want a subway, and they'll finally start to understand how to work around that thinking.

 

[kEiThZ]

coffey1 is satisfied with bus service for another 10 years, just as he is thrilled there are not 2 finished LRT projects in Scarborough today.

The bus service they have today and for the foreseeable future is a direct result of Scarborough's voting efforts, even killing Sheppard LRT after construction started.

And a lot of you should then be happy with Ford-esque politicians getting voted in regularly because of the frustration of voters in these parts. coffey1 is absolutely right. He's not asking for a subway, despite being painted as a subway advocate. He's asking for a coherent LRT plan that actually works for Scarborough riders. A coherent LRT plan wouldn't take you from bus to lrt to subway to bus on the very same corridor. A coherent LRT plan wouldn't force a good chunk of the eastbound ridership along Eglinton to terminate at Kennedy for a bus, with a vague promise of an LRT in another decade or two. And a coherent LRT plan wouldn't replace the Scarborough RT with an expensive grade separated LRT to Sheppard/Progress, amounting to what in reality is simply a marginal SRT extension. From the perspective of any Scarborough resident, this plan amounts to marginal improvement over the present level of service. It's really just cutting off a few minutes from the initial bus ride I have to take.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm starting to think a far better idea would be something like this:

1) Two stop Bloor-Danforth extension, Danforth and Eglinton and terminus at Eglinton GO.
2) At-grade Danforth-McCowan LRT. From Danforth/Eglinton up McCowan. They could take it all the way up to Milliken if they want. This would allow for replacement of McCowan North, one of the busiest bus routes at SC.
3) Keep Eglinton LRT on Eglinton and then continue on Kingston and up through Morningside as per the SMLRT plan. They can short-turn some trains if they don't need the frequency.
4) Serve Malvern with a spur of Sheppard, up Neilson Road or up the Progress hydro corridor.

Or heck, skip the subway extension and accelerate the SMLRT branch.....

 

[salsa]

Go to the NEWS tab & you'll see the assault bet the left media. Scroll all 20 pages. Keep scrolling its endless & for those that live in Scarborough there slant, false headlines, false stories, is disturbing. If only Suburban Toronto had this kind of propaganda machine to spew slanted views. Minimal & I mean minimal negative articles towards Richmond Hill or Vaughan subway

You are so full of it. The Spadina extension got lots of criticism from the media for being in the middle of nowhere while other priorities remain unbuilt, for being politically driven, for the fact that T.O taxpayers will be the ones paying to run the trains north of Steeles, and of course the delays and cost overruns among other things. But for the most part, that was in the news years ago when it actually mattered. With construction set to wrap up in the near future, there is nothing new to say anymore and there is no point for the media to keep talking about it. Therefore you won't hear much about it for the next little while.

The Scarborough subway deserves to be slammed by the media, and rightfully so. A fully funded and shovel-ready LRT plan was scuttled for the sole purpose of grabbing votes from gullible Scarborough voters such as yourself. The subway was pushed by some of the scummiest politicians in Toronto, from the Fords to Karen Stinz to Glen De Baeremaeker. Toronto taxpayers will be saddled with the huge price tag for decades to come. Many unanswered questions remain about how key facts such as how the ridership estimates came about, and the recent emergence of Smart Track and GO RER has further complicated this mess. Not a single credible transit expert has endorsed this subway project, and while the bickering continues the SRT remains on life support and could crap out any time. No wonder this has been in the news a lot (as you pointed out), because it seems like every month there is a new twist to this saga that makes the subway look like an even worse deal than it already is, with the OMB fight just being the latest development that threatens the viability of the whole damn thing.

My favorite is the trees on Bellamy. Why not show a picture of Eglinton or Lawrence and Bellamy which are ripe for development or the GO station on Eglinton which could be a hub. I could take a picture of trees of low rise house on 70% of the current subway stops side streets.

Absurdity

Yeah, absurdity indeed that you couldn't read the article properly, because here is the picture of Lawrence & Bellamy that you wanted:

Oh look, here another picture showing the GO station on Eglinton:

The possibility of a hub at the GO station was clearly acknowledged in the article, along with evidence that it would do little to boost ridership. But waaaahh they included a picture of the houses on Bellamy Road, therefore you dismiss the whole thing as just another propaganda article. If this article was the most egregious example of media bias that you could come up with, only to make yourself look like an idiot, then my confidence in the media's reporting has improved considerably.

blablalbalbala Elite media blablalbalbala...

You sound more like a Ford Nationite than the non-partisan that you claim to be. Did you vote for him in 2010?

 

[salsa]

What good does the Sheppard LRT do? It forces commuters off who likely have already taken a bus to transfer technologies in the same direction. NO WORLD CLASS CITY would build that nonsense

Sounds a lot like what you are proposing. So if I want to travel east along Eglinton, all I need to do is just take the Eglinton Crosstown, then transfer to the subway, then transfer again to the bus (or Morningside LRT). What a bunch on nonsense indeed (i.e you).

So where's your outrage now?

 

[BurlOak]

The Scarborough subway deserves to be slammed by the media, and rightfully so. A fully funded and shovel-ready LRT plan was scuttled for the sole purpose of grabbing votes from gullible Scarborough voters such as yourself. The subway was pushed by some of the scummiest politicians in Toronto, from the Fords to Karen Stinz to Glen De Baeremaeker. Toronto taxpayers will be saddled with the huge price tag for decades to come. Many unanswered questions remain about how key facts such as how the ridership estimates came about, and the recent emergence of Smart Track and GO RER has further complicated this mess. Not a single credible transit expert has endorsed this subway project, and while the bickering continues the SRT remains on life support and could crap out any time. No wonder this has been in the news a lot (as you pointed out), because it seems like every month there is a new twist to this saga that makes the subway look like an even worse deal than it already is, with the OMB fight just being the latest development that threatens the viability of the whole damn thing.

When the subway plan was first redirected, it was Stintz and DeBaermaker, but you forgot to give credit to Glen Murray. He opened the door for the change and even got Metrolinx to endorse it.

And Ford was pretty much non existent at the start.

The whole planning Strategy these past 4 years has been to defeat Ford, with no consideration for actually moving people.

 

[salsa]

When the subway plan was first redirected, it was Stintz and DeBaermaker, but you forgot to give credit to Glen Murray. He opened the door for the change and even got Metrolinx to endorse it.

And Ford was pretty much non existent at the start.

The whole planning Strategy these past 4 years has been to defeat Ford, with no consideration for actually moving people.

I agree completely. There are so many people to credit for this mess that my hand would get tired from typing out all of them. Of course Murray is another one of the key players in this. As for Ford, he may not have been directly involved initially, but his years of anti-LRT propaganda has influenced public opinion to the point that politicians saw an opportunity to take advantage of it, and that's what they did.

 

[coffey1]

Sounds a lot like what you are proposing. So if I want to travel east along Eglinton, all I need to do is just take the Eglinton Crosstown, then transfer to the subway, then transfer again to the bus (or Morningside LRT). What a bunch on nonsense indeed (i.e you).

View attachment 60502

So where's your outrage now?

Why do you speak of a Malvern LRT it's not even on the next wave. Quit trying to sell pixies dust to Scarborough. You obviously have no idea of what the issues are with the FUNDED LRT plan

Thanks for the childish insult re: Ford Nation You obviously haven't read my points of how I dislike both plans or you just like to throw classless insults Sounds like you have more in common with Ford Nation. Just of the opposite stripe.

 

[crs1026]

Why do you speak of a Malvern LRT it's not even on the next wave. Quit trying to sell pixies dust to Scarborough. You obviously have no idea of what the issues are with the FUNDED LRT plan

I hope you don't think that the people arguing with you are defending an 'official' on-the-books alternative. Most folks on here would agree that the plan needs to change, in a lot of ways. Some of the ideas are creative and some are directly opposite to the plan....for example, there is a lot of support for making Sheppard a single seamless line, and for putting extended LRT on the Funded plan sooner than next wave.

We can be unhappy with how we got here, but that won't make a proposed alternative a good one.

- Paul

 

[coffey1]

I hope you don't think that the people arguing with you are defending an 'official' on-the-books alternative. Most folks on here would agree that the plan needs to change, in a lot of ways. Some of the ideas are creative and some are directly opposite to the plan....for example, there is a lot of support for making Sheppard a single seamless line, and for putting extended LRT on the Funded plan sooner than next wave.

We can be unhappy with how we got here, but that won't make a proposed alternative a good one.

- Paul

I just believe you wont see a change from the Subway mantra until there are some serious changes to the Funded LRT plan as it really does little to improve transit in Scarborough as a whole.

It was only a couple posters that tried to twist my points & throw out childish like Ford Nation insults in addition to providing maps with unfunded LRT lines to try to prove some kind of point & pictures that made surrounding Bellamy look like Union Station compared to the Yonge & York Mills station when it was built (sarcasm of course)

 

[nfitz]

What good does the Sheppard LRT do? It forces commuters off who likely have already taken a bus to transfer technologies in the same direction. You really dont get it. And have no clue what is good for Scarborough.

Do you think they'd ever build a subway along Sheppard to Morningside?

LRT will move faster than the current buses - both now, and in the 2020s when the traffic predictions say Sheppard East will get even slow than it is now.

Fortunately, Toronto is a world class city, and is being sensible and will build LRT! Other than perhaps a short extension to Victoria Park, it's either LRT or bus. And anyone who has a clue of what is good for Scarborough would agree that fast LRT is better than being stuck in a bus.

Though why we are discussing the Sheppard LRT in this thread I don't now. Perhaps you could reply there. Thanks!

 

[salsa]

Why do you speak of a Malvern LRT it's not even on the next wave. Quit trying to sell pixies dust to Scarborough. You obviously have no idea of what the issues are with the FUNDED LRT plan

Pixie dust? At least it's part of the plan over the long run. But last time I checked, there are no plans to convert the Sheppard subway to LRT as YOU were proposing (among other ideas). If anything, it's YOU who is selling pixie dust.

You've been making a big hoopla over the transfer at Sheppard (and rightfully so), therefore I'm calling you out for ignoring the two transfers along Eglinton that will be created under the subway plan that you are defending. If mentioning the planned Malvern LRT in brackets offended you so much, then lemme rewrite my post:

So if I want to travel east along Eglinton, all I need to do is take the Eglinton Crosstown, then transfer to the subway, then transfer again to the bus (or Morningside LRT).

Happy now? I think my point still stands. If you feel that I've misunderstood you, then would you care to explain yourself now that the pixie dust has been removed?

 

[salsa]

Thanks for the childish insult re: Ford Nation You obviously haven't read my points of how I dislike both plans or you just like to throw classless insults Sounds like you have more in common with Ford Nation. Just of the opposite stripe.

And what about all of your classless insults?

"Do you even read."

"PLEASE quit the small minded Political subway vs. LRT nonsense"

"You really dont get it. And have no clue what is good for Scarborough."

"Good one Troll! A Ford would never support LRT"

"Maybe this will help you understand..."

"Seriously? Don't even know how to respond to such an ignorant comment."

"You can believe your BS left wing polls and "evidence" all you want "

"Really your post is a pure Lie & BS."


In addition to the many "childish insults" of your own, you haven't address a single thing I said, you rely more on emotion and "Scarborough deserves" rhetoric than facts to support your opinions, you are constantly ranting against the left and the Toronto Star, you act like your opinions are more valid than anyone else's because you are from Scarborough, and that whoever disagrees with you "obviously" doesn't understand/give a shit about Scarborough, etc. So I apologize if I'm seeing a lot of similarities between you and Ford Nationite talking points, which I'm not used to seeing on an Urban Toronto forum. To be fair, you have been critical of Ford but I'm still waiting to hear if you voted for him in 2010.

 

[coffey1]

And what about all of your classless insults?

"Do you even read."

"PLEASE quit the small minded Political subway vs. LRT nonsense"

"You really dont get it. And have no clue what is good for Scarborough."

"Good one Troll! A Ford would never support LRT"

"Maybe this will help you understand..."

"Seriously? Don't even know how to respond to such an ignorant comment."

"You can believe your BS left wing polls and "evidence" all you want "

"Really your post is a pure Lie & BS."


In addition to the many "childish insults" of your own, you haven't address a single thing I said, you rely more on emotion and "Scarborough deserves" rhetoric than facts to support your opinions, you are constantly ranting against the left and the Toronto Star, you think that your opinions are more valid than anyone else's because you are from Scarborough, and that whoever disagrees with you "obviously" doesn't understand/give a shit about Scarborough, etc. So I apologize if I'm seeing a lot of similarities between you and Ford Nationite talking points. To be fair, you have been critical of Ford but I'm still waiting to hear if you voted for him in 2010.

Its not worth arguing your post for obvious reasons. Again Ill keep It simple as to what I believe will get Scarborough voters off of the Subway

1. Get rid of the subway on Sheppard, convert to LRT
2. Fund The SMLRT
3. Find an alternative to subway for STC, whether (LRT, GO RER, etc)

Most of my responses you list were to Trollish name calling comments but I will also tone it down & not respond to those as well


Thanks for reading.

 

[BurlOak]

Anyone who does agree 100% with the original transit city plan is Ford nation. That includes anyone who wants to build the DRL before the Jane LRT.