TTC capital budget amendments (BD to East Mall study??)

[socialwoe]

The cost of tunneling under a railway's right of way is, indeed, stupid,

Yes reeeeeeeeeeeally stupid! Not to mention the area doesn't warrant it.

but how do subway tunnels induce claustrophobia, and how is it inevitable that trains will break down in them?

Ever rode to Kennedy Stn.? The dang train always breakdown in the tunnel for upto 5 mins. 5 mins in a dark, confined space, that's claustrophobia .

They'd either build a parking structure or the TTC would build spaces somewhere else. Sherway's peripheral parking pads would be all be developed if the subway came, anyway.

Ugh, there is ample vacant lands west of West Mall to accomodate a parking lot, no parking structure necessary. Shared parking spaces? This is the dumbest excuse to not build a subway extension I ever heard, it's inconceivable!

How can Cloverdale possibly get a stop? You'd have to leave the rail corridor. And no one would use a Shorncliffe stop - it'd only be a few hundred metres from the East Mall stop.

Double ugh! The Shorncliffe stop would be in leu of the East Mall stop as it wouldn't exist! Shorncliffe serves Dundas St more directly than the proposed stop would, occupying the space between the rail corridor and Dundas hence accessible to both. It'd also serve the numerous office buildings, chain outlets nearby. It already routes out a bus route and could accomodate a terminal more readily routing Martin Grove buses to the area south of Princess Margaret. It's also kittycorner to Honeydale, the only thing of worth in East Mall area anyway.

As for Cloverdale I was thinking more along the lines of a Hwy 427 routing north to Pearson. This would be tricky as it would likely involve either interlining from Kipling or preferably if Peel doesn't mind, routing first to Sherway Gdns before looping counterclockwise back to Hwy 427 then running up the median to Rathburn then along Renforth to the airport. It's basically an abridged version of my previous plan. This works out for both Etobicoke and Mississauga as routes from both cities would be bisected and encountered earlier than the current system of BD allots. It also targets more nodes combined than separate (>Six-Points, Sherway, Cloverdale, ECC, >Eringate, ACC, Pearson) and shuttles in the greatest amount of people into the downtown core (Albion/Brampton commuters as well).

Now before you complain I neglected any future subways to MCC, remember you were irked that I ran out lines over too long of distances and then there'd be the pesky issue of fare zones. Who's to say a Peel Region line can't begin at Sherway run out to Hurontario, upto and across Burnhamthrope to Erin Mills Town Centre than back along Eglinton to Pearson forming a continous loop? This way both cities fund their own systems, without sabotaging the full potential of either lines.

The subway would need to at very least go over or under the main line and all the service tracks along the route.

West of Shorncliffe, it could descend to hit East Mall at North Queen, serving two cross-streets at once. From there it's a sinch entering a depression at the base of 427 to the tunnel underneath the Queensway.

 

[unimaginative2]

Even if it's a bit of a tight fit, it would make sense to just buy up a little bit of the properties abutting the railway line. Looking at Google Maps, I see a warehouse building and a condo's parking turn-around. Surely buying those lands would be cheaper than a billion dollar tunnel. In fact, you could buy the whole condo and warehouse, tear them down, and still come out ahead.

Ever rode to Kennedy Stn.? The dang train always breakdown in the tunnel for upto 5 mins. 5 mins in a dark, confined space, that's claustrophobia .

Those trains haven't broken down. They have to stop when they receive a red signal. That means that there's another train in front of you which is too close to allow your train to safely continue.

You don't seem to have read the article that sparked this thread. It says that the whole reason for this mini-extension is to serve major new developments at East Mall. The owner of the properties there has also offered free land for a station and bus terminal, a huge deal for the TTC.

 

[dashingdan]

Bloor-Danforth terminating at Sherway Gardens could be too far south for some of the MT bus routes, since Sherway is at The Queensway. Now if the subway went back up to Dundas, that'd be better. Dundas would be the best bet to run a subway to MCC, certainly not Burnhamthorpe.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If we can spend billions on new subway lines, we can spend millions on fare integration, smart cards, stamps on the back of your hand, anything, so that 905 buses can just run straight to whichever subway station is closest and not one single MT bus ghetto. Maybe MT and TTC will be combined by that time...there's certainly no point in planning subway routes based on where MT buses currently "need" to run while ignoring GO at the same time.

"The Shorncliffe stop would be in leu of the East Mall stop as it wouldn't exist!"

Honeydale and other developments along Dundas will be practically as close to an East Mall stop and the Shorncliffe bus exists to serve Sherway and areas farther south, not Shorncliffe itself...a Shorncliffe station would be really useless.

"Ever rode to Kennedy Stn.? The dang train always breakdown in the tunnel for upto 5 mins."

Trains always breaking down? Sorry, that just doesn't happen. Approaching Kennedy during rush hour there's maybe a 50% chance you'll need to wait 30 seconds for a train to turn around and pass through the crossover.

"Bloor-Danforth terminating at Sherway Gardens could be too far south for some of the MT bus routes, since Sherway is at The Queensway. Now if the subway went back up to Dundas, that'd be better. Dundas would be the best bet to run a subway to MCC, certainly not Burnhamthorpe."

There's no point extending the Bloor line and not hitting Sherway and it'll have to hit or run along Dundas for some time to get anywhere west of there or to get to MCC.

 

[socialwoe]

That means that there's another train in front of you which is too close to allow your train to safely continue.

Then how lazy can personnel be to have trains sit idle in Kennedy Stn. for several mins before pulling off? It's a brand-new driver driving, he's not fatigued! Sometimes the trains even switch drivers at Coxwel, meaning there's zippo reason for the layover. Once the initial crop of passengers board it should pull off immediately as there's three-four trains behind demanding it get up and move!

It says that the whole reason for this mini-extension is to serve major new developments at East Mall. The owner of the properties there has also offered free land for a station and bus terminal, a huge deal for the TTC.

Fine give me a link or upload a map then. I don't know what's wrong with separate Shorncliffe and Cloverdale stops, this all sounds like a way to short-change TTC costumers yet again. Does anyone own the airspace over Shorncliffe at the rail overpass? That's exactly where I'd build the dang stop allowing passengers to seamlessly walk out to Dundas St. With the land immediately west handling exits, there'd be a two-route bus terminal real small (think Donlands) and underground access to Honeydale which if you think about leads right out to the East Mall.

Immediately west of Kipling Stn there numerous office buildings and chain outlets not to mention room for condos, this is how I figure Shorncliffe would be a success. A Cloverdale stop in the median of 427 allows direct subway access to the mall and the untapped markets of the Bloordale community and businesses around West Mall/427. More importantly this sets the stage for the one major node in the entire GTA that's constantly overlooked finally getting a direct mass transit link to the city, and no it wouldn't cost $22 one-way or take an entirely new subway line from the Allen Exwy to do it :evil !

Bloor-Danforth terminating at Sherway Gardens could be too far south for some of the MT bus routes, since Sherway is at The Queensway. Now if the subway went back up to Dundas, that'd be better. Dundas would be the best bet to run a subway to MCC, certainly not Burnhamthorpe.

Don't assume necessarily that a subway MUST reach MCC, better surface RT may not make at all required. Sherway on the other hand is the only thing of worth in the entire void between 427 and Hurontario, to neglect it because it's "too far south" is a very maniacal thing to suggest. Also a Dundas subway over Burnhamthrope is questionable beacuse BHT is already in MCC's alignment and has a larger residential community flanking it to make the intermediate stops viable, including a direct link to Etobicoke Civic Centre. Another thing to consider is how bus commutes would be reduced considerably if most MT routes terminated at Hwy 427. If Allen's any indication highway corridors can be utilized very well for suburban routes at the fraction of the cost of tunneling through low-density sprawl.

so that 905 buses can just run straight to whichever subway station is closest and not one single MT bus ghetto.

Precisely! Every MT route entering the city could be taken care of via Long Branch, Sherway, Cloverdale, Bloor West, Burnhamthrope, Rathburn (assuming they build that bridge over E. Creek), Renforth, Pearson and Woodbine Racetrack. In short what MT routes really need is a Hwy 427/27 area line intercepting everywhere from Port Credit to Derry Rd.

the Shorncliffe bus exists to serve Sherway and areas farther south, not Shorncliffe itself...a Shorncliffe station would be really useless.

Shorncliffe which further north becomes Martin Grove is a major artery that shouldn't share sapce with the 45 bus when it can be routed in it's own corridor all the way to Dundas, reaching 000s of new customers and the subway quicker. This stop can accomplish that+ the reasons I've already gave above.

Approaching Kennedy during rush hour there's maybe a 50% chance you'll need to wait 30 seconds for a train to turn around and pass through the crossover.

:rollin
All-day, any day it'll take longer than that, 100% chance!

There's no point extending the Bloor line and not hitting Sherway and it'll have to hit or run along Dundas for some time to get anywhere west of there or to get to MCC.

West of Sherway there's nothing to warrant it. Peel should probably build it's own Hurontario Line if it wants MCC on the map, with some sort of shuttle service between Sherway and Queensway/Hurontario stops :b .

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"All-day, any day it'll take longer than that, 100% chance!"

Your 'experiences' are so far removed from the reality I experience every day on the the TTC that I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. To keep trains at about a 3 minute or so frequency during the day, they sometimes need to keep trains sitting at end stations for 3 minutes - trains simply do not wait for longer than that during rush hour. Sure, it'd be nice if the train leaves the second you step on board, but if life was like that, you wouldn't need Viva.

 

[socialwoe]

Whatever your reality might be the layovers are excessively long and agonizing, considering an out-of-service parked inside Kennedy impedes like 2, 3 trains already inside the tunnel north of Warden. When they stall it'd be nice to have sonething to look outside to besides darkness and feelings of entrapment at the expense of being late for your bus hence late for your appointments, that's all I was complaining about. It doesn't happen only during rush hour and if it did it isn't exactly a rush service now is it !

 

[dashingdan]

what do you know, this thread has degenerated into another scarberian vs. socialwoe debate

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'll try to just respond to the absolute silliest or wrongest comments he makes, but there's so many of them...how ever will I choose?

And don't blame me if people don't like what's going on in isolated threads. If it seems like there's only 20 posts a day, 10 of them being socialwoe rants and 10 of them being "this thread is off-topic!" complaints, people can post in them and derail tangents/silly arguments. I'd rather read a few pages of socialwoe's crazy ideas than the umpteenth "serious" discussion of subway extensions.

 

[jeicow]

I can't believe you'd actually support an extension to a mall that has one condo under construction, a Wal-Mart/big box mess, a chapters and a hospital and is surronded by highways to two sides, yet consider MCC to be too sprawly. Sherway has always been worst than MCC to me, and despite all this "development potential", all that's come out of it so far is One Sherway. Sherway's target has always been the Oakville, SUV soccer mom so really, all you'd doing is building a subway to Wal-Mart, and not a nice one at that. 427/27 would be the WORST (er... 2nd worst after the 401) possible place to build a subway in the median, and I'm sure it would end up like the mess that Chicago has, where you see why it's faster to take a car than take the subway. The Spadina line has never really lived up to expectations and the short turned trains show that. The extension to YorkU/Vaughan is just a desperate attempt to try to utilize the extra capacity that remains on it. And if this added bonus of the 427 highway intersecting with most major MT routes, where would you possibly put room for them to turn around it/unload/wait except for on a bridge? The 427 is a very different beast from the Allen and most ways of building from there could likely never work, and it'd just be easier to tunnel the entire route.

 

[dashingdan]

Scarberian I think you and socialwoe should have your very own thread where you two can rant and rave at each other. Like the AP and BB thread in the Out and About Forum. It can be amusing some times, but it often becomes REALLY long to read through.

And jeicow, I think it's only logical for the Bloor line to stop at Sherway on its way west. I definitely think MCC would be a better end point, but that'd be a very expensive proposition. I think the East Mall extension could be very cheaply done if it was at grade, but the TTC would rather insist on tunneling and that way the costs are unjustifiable and we never get anything. If Islington to Kipling was at grade, why can't Kipling to East Mall?

 

[socialwoe]

what do you know, this thread has degenerated into another scarberian vs. socialwoe debate

Is there any better kind :lol ?

I'll try to just respond to the absolute silliest or wrongest comments he makes, but there's so many of them...how ever will I choose?

'Wrongest' :rolleyes ! I think you should address your absolute silliest improper grammar first and foremost. And you can't blame that one on fast typing as with my posts, you edited afterwards.

I'd rather read a few pages of socialwoe's crazy ideas than the umpteenth "serious" discussion of subway extensions.

Einstein and the Curies were ridiculed too, don't worry my skin's thicker than all three combined :evil . My ideas are ingenious, there's no better word for it and yes the so called serious discussions are those that settle for mediocrity such like having East Mall supplant for East Mall+Shorncliffe+ Cloverdale- the very purpose of me being here ranting.

I can't believe you'd actually support an extension to a mall that has one condo under construction, a Wal-Mart/big box mess, a chapters and a hospital and is surronded by highways to two sides, yet consider MCC to be too sprawly.

Did you even read my comment? I never said MCC in of itself is sprawlly, it's the miles and miles of industrial dreck and vacant lots it'll take to get there that I'm opposed to. Furthermore there are several inexpensive options that haven't even been contemplated yet like express QEW service, ROW lanes on West Mall/Dundas, ICTS on Hurontario with shuttle service between MT Queensway Stn and TTC Sherway Stn, BRT, Bahn-S wyeing of the Milton GO line, etc.

Sherway has always been worst than MCC to me, and despite all this "development potential", all that's come out of it so far is One Sherway.

Sherway like Yorkdale, STC and Fairview before it (hopefully Centrepoint will soon join the list) could be a major success attracting 000s of new customers to the mall, jump-starting massive redevelopment, finally bringing the subway to Mississauga (yes technically it'd achieve that), etc. Without the draw of Sherway the extension would be a white elephant that'll end somewhere within nowhere East Sauga as it'd take multibillions to get it all the way to MCC.

all you'd doing is building a subway to Wal-Mart, and not a nice one at that.

*cough* government-endorsed VCC extension *cough*

427/27 would be the WORST (er... 2nd worst after the 401) possible place to build a subway in the median,

:eek
It's all over James Bow's website how subways in highway medians would not only be successful but could be routed all the way to those SUV soccer moms of yours in Oakville. Now while they wouldn't be pedestrian friendly (although I'd connect the stations to a matrix of walkways above and underground) they'd undeniably be faster and more reliable than the surface network.

427/27 granted has more lanes than Allen but it is flanked by sevral major nodes it's entire length (Long Branch, Alderwood Mall, Sherway Gdns, Cloverdale Mall, Etobicoke Civic Centre, construction around Rathburn, ACC, Pearson, Skyway Industrial & Congress Centre, Woodbine Racetrack, Humber Regional Hosp., Humber College, Albion Mall). Furthermore it connects people in North Etobicoke and Brampton, 60,000 daily airport users, all the intermediates and of course all the MT routes to the subway system in a fraction of the time encountered today.

The Spadina line has never really lived up to expectations and the short turned trains show that. The extension to YorkU/Vaughan is just a desperate attempt to try to utilize the extra capacity that remains on it.

Yes and no. Yes it's underutilized and that'll only increase as the Sheppard Line moves westward, Eglinton's built and a DRL up the Weston corridor siphons off more and more passengers. Eventually Spadina will only be of use to those who need the density immediate surrounding the stations. However no as well because an extension to York U would likely bring the line to full-capacity.

And if this added bonus of the 427 highway intersecting with most major MT routes, where would you possibly put room for them to turn around it/unload/wait except for on a bridge?

Yes that's how I'd do it, on the bridge. Three stations: Bloor West, Burnhamthrpe and Rathburn would have platfroms suspended off the bridge large enough to allow 5-6 routes to pickup/drop-off/stand-by. Cloverdale would be an on-street transfer required affair, but it'd accept MT transfers. Further north Woodbine Racetrack and Humber College Stns. would be at grade but have exits leading underground hence underground bus terminals.

The 427 is a very different beast from the Allen and most ways of building from there could likely never work, and it'd just be easier to tunnel the entire route.

Gosh, why does everyone here take the wussy way out? Build more expensive tunnels because we're afraid to explore elevated platforms :rolleyes ? At grade the line to Pearson could be done in half the time and money tunnel-boring would.
The only tunneled portion would be under Renforth.

It can be amusing some times, but it often becomes REALLY long to read through.

Trust me it's worth the read, you can't afford to purchase quips like our's :rollin !

I definitely think MCC would be a better end point, but that'd be a very expensive proposition.

MCC is practically another Sherway anyway, what Missisauga really needs is to invest in is it's own RTs, one along Hurontario and the other Eglinton. It's better for both cities if the BD line veers north after Sherway instead futher west through sprawl as the airport most importantly needs a rapid link, above anywhere else.

 

[doady]

I don't know how anyone can say MCC is the same as Sherway. If you compare the their transit terminals and the density and the amount of devleopment, it is not even close.

A subway to Sherway is like a subway to Vaughan Corporate Centre, though the latter actually can become a regional transit hub.

Based on both ridership and development potential, tunnelling under Dundas all the way to Hurontario is better than to Sherway. Remember, in the 905, Dundas is as busy as Yonge, which many people would support for subway extension.

 

[roch5220]

Yes, I've been there many times during the day. Why would the mall want its parking lot full all day, every day? Sure, there's room at 8am, but what about at 6pm when everyone's scrambling to find a parking spot but 2500 of them are taken up by people who haven't left downtown yet? They'd either build a parking structure or the TTC would build spaces somewhere else. Sherway's peripheral parking pads would be all be developed if the subway came, anyway

Malls thrive on people traffic. The first part wouldn't be an issue for them.

The 2nd part though would be the issue later on down the road. Doesn't take much for a Dear Daniels or Tridel to come up and build their cookie cutter Capital/Ovation type developments that seem to be so popular for those who want to live in these repetitive suburban-style highrises .

 

[socialwoe]

I don't know how anyone can say MCC is the same as Sherway.

They are. They're both two sprawling behemoth shopping centres flanked by highways, condos, big-box outlet stores and serve as regional terminals. Is it too much to ask Peel find it's own way if we're willing to bring our system as close as the border to appease mainly them?

If you compare the their transit terminals and the density and the amount of devleopment, it is not even close.

That's because one's the city centre, dawh! You think Sherway wouldn't be 10x what it currently is if the subway was expanded to it?

A subway to Sherway is like a subway to Vaughan Corporate Centre, though the latter actually can become a regional transit hub.

:rollin
Sherway already is a regional transit hub TTC 80, 76 and 123 and MT 4. Considering routes 1/1C, 3, 20, 26, 27, 70, 82, 82A, 201 Express, 206 Express and 230 Express could be handled by a regional terminal at Sherway combined with 11/11A, 17, 50, 57, and 89 interfacing with the Hwy 27 subway stops where terminating further north is more feasible Sherway would be the largest MT terminal outside Peel.

Based on both ridership and development potential, tunnelling under Dundas all the way to Hurontario is better than to Sherway.

Yup, that looks mighty better to me :smokin ! Must be a low demand week or something.

Remember, in the 905, Dundas is as busy as Yonge, which many people would support for subway extension.

It's sure is busy out there in 'em bungalows ain't it :rolleyes !?!