Transit Fantasy Maps

[nfitz]

Actually, the return trip on TTC would be $5.40 assuming that the person uses two tokens.

LOL ... math fail! Ooops!

Now that Lakeshore east is every 30 minutes, how many are taking GO instead of the TTC to go from places like east Danforth or Scarborough to downtown I wonder?

When I get off at Danforth, peak trains still disembark a lot more people than off-peak trains. And as there have been few peak increases ... I doubt it's made that much difference.

There's certainly a lot of people using the off-peak ... off-peak ridership has clearly grown based on how busy the trains are.

It's a shame there aren't hard numbers.

From what I've seen and heard, the biggest increase to Lakeshore West ridership of late, has been the Gardiner construction. And the weekend the DVP was closed, Lakeshore East weekend trains were much fuller than normal.

 

[ehlow]

LOL ... math fail! Ooops!

When I get off at Danforth, peak trains still disembark a lot more people than off-peak trains. And as there have been few peak increases ... I doubt it's made that much difference.

There's certainly a lot of people using the off-peak ... off-peak ridership has clearly grown based on how busy the trains are.

It's a shame there aren't hard numbers.

From what I've seen and heard, the biggest increase to Lakeshore West ridership of late, has been the Gardiner construction. And the weekend the DVP was closed, Lakeshore East weekend trains were much fuller than normal.

Interesting, thanks. Assuming someone arrives at the station ~5 min before the train comes though, it would be faster for someone who lives near Danforth GO station to take GO to the financial district than the TTC though right?

 

[nfitz]

Interesting, thanks. Assuming someone arrives at the station ~5 min before the train comes though, it would be faster for someone who lives near Danforth GO station to take GO to the financial district than the TTC though right?

Yes, depends where they work and time of day. And construction. At 7:30 AM it's about 30 minutes on streetcar from Main and Gerrard to Yonge and King, if you know when a 506 is coming and can catch a 504 in 1 minute (which isn't infeasible given they come every 2 minutes). And about 25 minutes on the subway. The train is scheduled to take 14 minutes ... but can do it in 10 - though is often up to 5 minutes late in rush hour. So say 14 minutes, plus 5 minutes to walk to station, and 7-8 minutes to walk to King/Yonge (it can take rather a long time to get off the train, down the stairs, and through the crowds). So about 27-28 minutes.

They are all fairly similar. But if any further away from north Union than King and subway becomes quicker. And any further east than Church and the streetcar becomes quicker. And any more than a 5-minute walk from Danforth station, and it's out of the picture. For someone who works on Front Street and lives 2-3 minutes from Danforth Station the train is perfect. After that it all depends on construction/congestion/crowdling. Certainly for those heading to George Brown, Ryerson, City Hall, U of T, etc., the GO Train to Union doesn't do much.

Though I've found GO to Kipling is a lot faster than subway ... and I'd assume GO to Kennedy as well. It's for these further trips that it pays off.

 

[ehlow]

Yes, depends where they work and time of day. And construction. At 7:30 AM it's about 30 minutes on streetcar from Main and Gerrard to Yonge and King, if you know when a 506 is coming and can catch a 504 in 1 minute (which isn't infeasible given they come every 2 minutes). And about 25 minutes on the subway. The train is scheduled to take 14 minutes ... but can do it in 10 - though is often up to 5 minutes late in rush hour. So say 14 minutes, plus 5 minutes to walk to station, and 7-8 minutes to walk to King/Yonge (it can take rather a long time to get off the train, down the stairs, and through the crowds). So about 27-28 minutes.

They are all fairly similar. But if any further away from north Union than King and subway becomes quicker. And any further east than Church and the streetcar becomes quicker. And any more than a 5-minute walk from Danforth station, and it's out of the picture. For someone who works on Front Street and lives 2-3 minutes from Danforth Station the train is perfect. After that it all depends on construction/congestion/crowdling. Certainly for those heading to George Brown, Ryerson, City Hall, U of T, etc., the GO Train to Union doesn't do much.

Though I've found GO to Kipling is a lot faster than subway ... and I'd assume GO to Kennedy as well. It's for these further trips that it pays off.

Interesting. So it sounds like if GO were electrified and and frequent, it could provide an attractive alternative to the subway for long distance trips and maybe some medium distance trips.

I mean, I wonder if at Kennedy station the train was every 15 minutes to Union (maybe 10 min peak, 15 off peak), could that take a significant amount of people off the subway, given that it should be faster? (and if fares were reduced). I would think that a lot of people do want to go to the office buildings within walking distance of Union station.

 

[nfitz]

I mean, I wonder if at Kennedy station the train was every 15 minutes to Union (maybe 10 min peak, 15 off peak), could that take a significant amount of people off the subway, given that it should be faster? (and if fares were reduced). I would think that a lot of people do want to go to the office buildings within walking distance of Union station.

It would take a significant number of people off the subway who are heading to/near Union. I'd wager that most people getting on the subway at Kennedy aren't heading to the Yonge line south of Bloor, and most of those that are, aren't heading to Union (I believe the biggest destination south of Bloor at AM peak is Dundas). I can't imagine it would be anywhere near as effective relief as an express subway from Pape to Queen or King station.

The scheduled travel time on GO from Kennedy to Union is 22 minutes. The scheduled travel time on the subway from Kennedy to Yonge/Bloor station is 22 minutes. Generally everyone who boards the subway now at Kennedy gets a seat. Generally everyone who boards the GO Train at Kennedy stands. It's about 2-3 minutes to transfer to the Yonge line at Yonge/Bloor. It's about 8-10 minutes to transfer to the Yonge line at Union.

Yes, it's a no brainer if you work close to Union station. But it's a lousy relief line from Kennedy.

Really the expanded GO service will provide additional transit options for those living and working in the outer Toronto suburbs. They will do little to relieve the current subway lines. They might even make them busier, given that this should encourage modal shift away from cars.

 

[salsa]

It would take a significant number of people off the subway who are heading to/near Union. I'd wager that most people getting on the subway at Kennedy aren't heading to the Yonge line south of Bloor, and most of those that are, aren't heading to Union (I believe the biggest destination south of Union at AM peak is Dundas). I can't imagine it would be anywhere near as effective relief as an express subway from Pape to Queen or King station.

The scheduled travel time on GO from Kennedy to Union is 22 minutes. The scheduled travel time on the subway from Kennedy to Yonge/Bloor station is 22 minutes. Generally everyone who boards the subway now at Kennedy gets a seat. Generally everyone who boards the GO Train at Kennedy stands. It's about 2-3 minutes to transfer to the Yonge line at Yonge/Bloor. It's about 8-10 minutes to transfer to the Yonge line at Union.

Yes, it's a no brainer if you work close to Union station. But it's a lousy relief line from Kennedy.

Really the expanded GO service will provide additional transit options for those living and working in the outer Toronto suburbs. They will do little to relieve the current subway lines. They might even make them busier, given that this should encourage modal shift away from cars.

Excellent points. One of the biggest problems I see with GO as a substitute of the DRL, is that it intersects the BD line too far east (at Main Street stn), and it's not even a short walk between the subway and GO in that area. If anything, GO improvements would act more like Bloor-Danforth relief line, rather than a Yonge street relief line.

Btw I think you meant south of Bloor, not south of Union.

 

[nfitz]

Btw I think you meant south of Bloor, not south of Union.

Indeed! Thanks!

 

[BurlOak]

All this time after installing the Queens Quay tram, a ton of people still take Bathurst tram to get to the Ex. Simply put, people don't change pattern easily. If this was functional, it would take a lot of effort to make it used. TTC might have to skip Yonge station for a bit to make it happen.

The second issue is that this helps relieve St. George, not Bloor/Yonge as it takes travellers to the University line first. How many people will stay on the train at Yonge (coming from the East is the problem), go to Lower Bay, then ride around the loop to get to King or Queen? They can do that today at St. George already.

If the Lower Bay was instead Lower Sherborne and a next stop of Wellesley it might work quite well.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._station_to_relieve_yongeuniversity_line.html

If I understand properly, this is the proposal:

For simplicity, the main Yonge Line (Finch to Vaughan) would be 4 minutes and the short turn Yonge (Finch to Bay Lower) would be 4 minutes. The B-D would be a complete separate line.

Would a passenger coming from Kennedy stay an extra station to Bay Lower to get a guaranteed spot on a southbound train - even if the frequency is only 4 minutes instead of two? A fair number probably would. Maybe the total transfers from B-D to YUS, which is currently done at 2 (technically 3) stations, will not be evenly spread over 3 stations (technically 4), but it would definitely help.

Would some construction be needed? A cross-over would be needed so that the North-East Bound train to Bay Lower could turn south to the YUS Southbound tracks.

The big thing that seems to be minimized is the Capacity of the Southbound Spadina portion of the line. With 4 minute frequency from Vaughan to Dupont, would the capacity be enough? The DRTES shows current demand of 19k and 2031 demand at 25k. I do not think this can be met with 4 minute frequency.

So although I agree that this proposal will help the Y-B interchange, it will hurt the Spadina leg of the line even more.

 

[rbt]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._station_to_relieve_yongeuniversity_line.html

If I understand properly, this is the proposal

<snip>

Yes. That is the proposal as I understood it.

So although I agree that this proposal will help the Y-B interchange...

I'm not at all sure how. Why would a customer who currently uses Bloor/Yonge and NOT St. George, take this new train around the loop to their destination station on Yonge Street?

In the best case scenario for riders going to Union Station it has a 2 to 3 minute time penalty, King is closer to 5 minute penalty.

It's an alternative to St. George which doesn't need one rather than Bloor-Yonge.

it will hurt the Spadina leg of the line even more.

Yeah, Dupont to St. George is screwed. Customers who previously transferred at St. George would be forced to stop that practice (due to massive crowding) and half (50,000 per day) would be forced to transfer at Bay instead which would effectively fill trains departing from Lower Bay with former St. George customers.

In fact, just to avoid the hassle of deciding which University bound train to take and the associated time penalty of Lower Bay (doubling back a bit), Bloor-Yonge ridership might actually increase with more customers from the West.

 

[the lemur]

This may be a silly question and/or in the wrong forum, but how much use do the existing tracks in the Portlands and along Lake Shore currently see?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

How much construction would be required and how long would it take to renovate St George and Bay stations from bi levels to quad track stations? This would save the concerns of passengers having to wait between platforms to catch the next train.

 

[dunkalunk]

I found this little gem in my RSS feeds. It's a rail network map of the entire existing/under construction US Northeast extended to southern Ontario and Quebec. The scope is incredibly huge ambitious. Here's a closeup of the GO network:

I have a feeling it's a work in progress. There looks to be three instances of Glencoe station, Union has been renamed "Saint Lambert" and there are some awesome typos like "Bramales". Still very fun to look at though!

 

[Johnny Au]

I found this little gem in my RSS feeds. It's a rail network map of the entire existing/under construction US Northeast extended to southern Ontario and Quebec. The scope is incredibly huge ambitious. Here's a closeup of the GO network:

I have a feeling it's a work in progress. There looks to be three instances of Glencoe station, Union has been renamed "Saint Lambert" and there are some awesome typos like "Bramales". Still very fun to look at though!

I want to know which pope canonized Adam Lambert.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

My first post! Anyway, I wanted to share a GTA fantasy map I made a few months back.

Link: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=z3ENd1Q3zp8I.k8c0vYpVoyeI

Highlights:

- Split operation on Yonge and Spadina lines during peak periods only
- (Mostly) Resurrected Transit City
- Downtown Relief line from Fairview Mall to Lambton (at least, until I come up with something better) via Overlea, Pape/Danforth, Union Station, and Dundas West
- Subway extensions to Vaughan Mills on the Spadina line and Major Mackenzie Drive on the Yonge line
- Subway extension to Square One via Sherway on the Bloor line
- Extended Sheppard subway to Downsview
- New light rail line through the Port Lands area
- Upgrading the Spadina, Harbourfront, and St Clair streetcar right of ways to true LRT
- Extensive bus rapid transit network throughout York, Peel, and Durham Regions
- Service to Pearson Airport by Eglinton LRT, Finch West LRT, Union Pearson Express, and BRT along Dixon Road
- High speed rail along Lakeshore corridor from Hamilton to Oshawa, stopping at Oakville, Port Credit, Union, and Pickering
- New GO service to Cambridge, Orangeville, Bolton, Beaverton, Uxbridge, Peterborough, and Bowmanville

I look forward to seeing my ideas torn apart by those more knowledgeable than I in matters of GTA transit.

Reg, this is a great map, honestly. I have no criticism. I hope you come back to post soon so we can discuss!

 

[reg787]

Reg, this is a great map, honestly. I have no criticism. I hope you come back to post soon so we can discuss!

Thanks! I emphasized connectivity by designing a smaller number of large hubs than a large number of small hubs, to minimize the much dreaded transfers. I avoided alienating the suburbs by giving them their fair share of BRT lines, feeding into the LRT, subways, and GO.

I'm thinking of adding an "express LRT" line from Square One to Unionville GO via Bramalea, York U, and RHC to replace GO's current Hwy 407 bus service. Thoughts?