TOareaFan
Superstar
Has Hudak (or any leader of any party) actually said they would cancel the other elements of the Big Move?
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Has Hudak (or any leader of any party) actually said they would cancel the other elements of the Big Move?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
well yes, those portions are the portions funded by the transit tax, which they oppose. plus he has said that he woulld cancel the Finch LRT and Sheppard LRT in exchange for the Sheppard subway. (which wouldn't even fund all of it) In general Hudaks trainsit policy is a bit hazy, but what I showed is what I managed to garner from news clippings.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I am not sure that opposing the "funding tools" is cancelling the projects. The only interviews I have heard from PCs indicate that they think there is room within the operating budget and existing taxes to find $2B a year for transit expansion....so they seem to be saying they would support the big move but would fund it differently.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Why would a Conservative support such a wasteful transit plan?
Wait. They're not conservative. They're idiot populists.
Sigh... I want real Progressive Conservatives again.
Wait. They're not conservative. They're idiot populists.
Sigh... I want real Progressive Conservatives again.
Johnny Au
Senior Member
There you have it.
The Progressive Conservatives of today are not progressive, not conservative, and not politically correct. What a misnomer.
The Progressive Conservatives of today are not progressive, not conservative, and not politically correct. What a misnomer.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
what I have seen the PCs say they will fund:
All day 2 way to Hamilton (a 1 station extension)
North Yonge Subway
^those are the only ones they have said they will fund that are in the Big Move
Sheppard Subway
Scarborough Subway
also important: never even seen the slightest mention of the DRL. as far as I am aware they plan to build the North Yonge subway and Sheppard Subway without building the DRL.
Hudaks official position on transit is this:
We will build subways when we can afford it.
Doesn't sound like someone promising to build $28 billion worth of LRTs and GO lines.
their more accurate name currently is probably more like "Ontario Republican Party"
I consider myself a Red Tory/ Financial realist. I hate it when politicians promise to cut taxes during a $11 billion deficit. (Hudak) I hate it when they increase spending without increasing revenue to match, on top of a $11 billion deficit (Wynne in the last budget) I love it when they Cut programs and keep taxes level, and possibly increase slightly to make a $0 deficit, and come up with serious plans to solve serious problems such as transit (Big Move along with it's funding solution) rather than playing stupid politics and claiming you can have your cake and eat it too. (Hudak, who proposes to cut taxes, fund 2 billion in transit yearly, and post a surplus within 2 years, without sending government service back to Harris years levels)
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
You sound fairly centrist to me. We more or less share the same political ideology. Maintain a balanced budget, except in extraordinary circumstances. Cut unnecessary services to maintain a low tax level, but also feel free to raise taxes to preserve other services if needed. And don't be afraid to raise taxes to fund necessary investments in our future (eg transit). I generally support the Liberals, but only because they're the least of the three evils (NDP, Conservative and Liberal). It's too bad that we don't have a political environment where doing what's right and needed is valued over scoring some political points.
Adjei
Senior Member
Yeah and we saw how Rob Ford was able to find room within operating budgets and existing taxes to fund his subways without going crying to other levels of government for new money or looking to divert existing funds from other projects..
TOareaFan
Superstar
I never said it was possible...just that that is what the tories are saying........there seemed to be a belief/knowledge that they had said they were cancelling the big move projects....and I have not heard them say it.
the point is that the maps above are a bit misleading....they credit the current government with the big move projects because a) they were the gov't when they were proposed and b) they have said they will raise revenues to do it even though none of those revenue tools have been actually proposed never mind implemented........on the other hand, the opposition party did not propose the big move projects but they certainly haven't said they would cancel them but their funding model is different.
All I asked, originally, was has Hudak actually said he would not proceed with the Big Move...I don't think he has.
In reality, neither party should be credited with the big move projects in a "future map if we eleted "X" " scenario because neither, really, has found the money to pay for them.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
There is a World Metro Database available at this link.
Its part of microbits.org.
The home page is at this link.
Its part of microbits.org.
The home page is at this link.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
my dream interregional rail network: (note that the Red line runs to New York)
a more detailed routing map and a speed legend (red is Electrified HSR (300km/h) and blue is improved diesel service (200km/h))
a more detailed routing map and a speed legend (red is Electrified HSR (300km/h) and blue is improved diesel service (200km/h))
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Here is a little (HA!) map I made of the big move:
Yellow = Subway
Dark Blue = Grade separated LRT (same speeds as a subway)
Light Blue = In Median LRT (a bit slower than a subway)
Red = BRT
Black = All Day 2 Way GO
Compared to what Hudak is promising (note that most of these projects are liberal projects that he isn't cancelling, the only thing he promises to add is the Sheppard subway, Scarborough Subway, and Yonge Subway)
How do you use different colors to draw in google maps?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
after you save the line you can go to the "style, colour" tab and click the red box.
diminutive
Active Member
My (semirealistic) fantasy map for a regional rapid transit network:
I've tried to create here a rapid transit network which would provide coverage for all of the 416 and relieve pressure on the Yonge Subway line.
Obviously there are two major components to this: a 12-13km extension of the Yonge Subway from Finch to Elgin Mills and ~80-90km of new rapid transit in creating a second u through downtown Toronto to the North Western and Eastern suburbs.
I'll give a brief description of those two aspects in terms of route, characteristics and cost before going over some implications for other means of transit in the GTA.
Yonge Extension: 4-5 billion dollars. This would run more or less like the planned YSE until Richmond Hill Station, where it would emerge to surface and run alongside the GO corridor until Elgin Mills. To keep costs down and travel speeds up, station spacing would be very wide (e.g. Elgin Mills - Major Mac- Richmond Hill - Steeles)
The second U is a bit bigger so I will break it up into parts. The route would be a typical heavy rail line, mostly running on surface or above ground. The central trunk would be built to handle trains as frequently as possible, up to every 90s if possible. Since that would basically entail ATO, the trains would be driverless. Outside of the busiest downtown stations, stations would be largely unattended with direct access to platforms, like current GO stations or suburban trains in other parts of the world.
DRL-Trunk Line: Probably 8-10 billion from Eglinton to Dundas West, depending on routing. In the map I indicated a King street alignment, but that's quite notional. Without access to more detailed information though let's just stick with that. Pretty standard otherwise. Stations would be Dundas West - Lansdowne/Howard Park - Parkdale - Liberty Village - Strachan - Bathurt - Spadina - St. Andrew - King - Jarvis/Sherbourne - Distillery District/Cherry - Leslieville - Gerrard Square - Pape - Thorncliffe - Don Mills.
Northeast Branches: From Don Mills-Eglinton, the line would continue North East along the rail ROW to the 401 with stations at Lawrence/VicPark and Ellesmere/Warden. After that the line would branch out. The shortest branch would run to Scarborough Town Center on a 4km spur viaduct. Based on the UPE viaduct costs, this ought not cost more than $200m, especially if the spur was single-tracked. Second branch would continue along the rail corridor around the south side of the Toronto Yard until Morningside with stations at Markham, Nielson and Morningside. At under 10km, the cost for this should be under ~1-2 billion dollars. The third branch would run from the 401 north along the Stouffville line, basically replacing it until Meadowvale with stations at the major arterial roads. I'm not sure what it would cost in terms of track doubling, signalling, grade seperation, electrification, and station construction. Likely about 4 billion dollars. In total for all of these branches I'd guess about 7-8 billion dollars.
Northwest Branches: From Dundas West, the main part of the line would continue along the Georgetown corridor cannibalizing the UPE infrastructure to the airport. The costs here ought to be limited, mostly electrification, signalling and adding additional stations. A second branch could peel off near the UPE spur to serve Rexdale and Humber College on a viaduct along Hwy27. Again, at a only a few km it shouldn't cost more than a few hundred million.
A third branch could peel off along the Milton Line to before ducking into a tunnel to serve Mississauga City Centre. This would be more challenging, but still doable. It provide a relatively speedy connection between MCC and downtown Toronto. Notionally I would expect costs to be about ~4-5 billion dollars. So, in total, for the western branches there would be a similar 6-7 billion dollar price tag.
That would bring the total price tag of what I'm proposing to 20-25 billion dollars! Things add up quickly.
For that though we'd have a radically different regional transit network, with frequent all day service reaching almost all of the 416 and even good chunks of the 905, as well as a new E-W rapid transit link downtown. Surface transit would be more efficient due to higher turnover. The need for a Union Station tunnel or second Union Station would be obviated. Huge amounts of under-utilized industrial land would be ripe for redevelopment after being linked directly to downtown.
The cost is substantial, but in many ways no more than what's planned. If we actually wanted all day frequent service and RER like operations on the GO lines, we would likely be talking about 10 billion dollars at least. Likewise, if we wanted the full DRL to relieve Yonge we'd be talking about similar outlays. Similarly, ideas like extending the Danforth line to STC or Sheppard could be abandoned once those areas are served by the network I'm proposing, which would offer better service anyhow.
GO lines could also be rationalized quite a bit since these regional networks would cannibalize the busiest parts of pretty much everything but the Lakeshore and Barrie Lines.
I've tried to create here a rapid transit network which would provide coverage for all of the 416 and relieve pressure on the Yonge Subway line.
Obviously there are two major components to this: a 12-13km extension of the Yonge Subway from Finch to Elgin Mills and ~80-90km of new rapid transit in creating a second u through downtown Toronto to the North Western and Eastern suburbs.
I'll give a brief description of those two aspects in terms of route, characteristics and cost before going over some implications for other means of transit in the GTA.
Yonge Extension: 4-5 billion dollars. This would run more or less like the planned YSE until Richmond Hill Station, where it would emerge to surface and run alongside the GO corridor until Elgin Mills. To keep costs down and travel speeds up, station spacing would be very wide (e.g. Elgin Mills - Major Mac- Richmond Hill - Steeles)
The second U is a bit bigger so I will break it up into parts. The route would be a typical heavy rail line, mostly running on surface or above ground. The central trunk would be built to handle trains as frequently as possible, up to every 90s if possible. Since that would basically entail ATO, the trains would be driverless. Outside of the busiest downtown stations, stations would be largely unattended with direct access to platforms, like current GO stations or suburban trains in other parts of the world.
DRL-Trunk Line: Probably 8-10 billion from Eglinton to Dundas West, depending on routing. In the map I indicated a King street alignment, but that's quite notional. Without access to more detailed information though let's just stick with that. Pretty standard otherwise. Stations would be Dundas West - Lansdowne/Howard Park - Parkdale - Liberty Village - Strachan - Bathurt - Spadina - St. Andrew - King - Jarvis/Sherbourne - Distillery District/Cherry - Leslieville - Gerrard Square - Pape - Thorncliffe - Don Mills.
Northeast Branches: From Don Mills-Eglinton, the line would continue North East along the rail ROW to the 401 with stations at Lawrence/VicPark and Ellesmere/Warden. After that the line would branch out. The shortest branch would run to Scarborough Town Center on a 4km spur viaduct. Based on the UPE viaduct costs, this ought not cost more than $200m, especially if the spur was single-tracked. Second branch would continue along the rail corridor around the south side of the Toronto Yard until Morningside with stations at Markham, Nielson and Morningside. At under 10km, the cost for this should be under ~1-2 billion dollars. The third branch would run from the 401 north along the Stouffville line, basically replacing it until Meadowvale with stations at the major arterial roads. I'm not sure what it would cost in terms of track doubling, signalling, grade seperation, electrification, and station construction. Likely about 4 billion dollars. In total for all of these branches I'd guess about 7-8 billion dollars.
Northwest Branches: From Dundas West, the main part of the line would continue along the Georgetown corridor cannibalizing the UPE infrastructure to the airport. The costs here ought to be limited, mostly electrification, signalling and adding additional stations. A second branch could peel off near the UPE spur to serve Rexdale and Humber College on a viaduct along Hwy27. Again, at a only a few km it shouldn't cost more than a few hundred million.
A third branch could peel off along the Milton Line to before ducking into a tunnel to serve Mississauga City Centre. This would be more challenging, but still doable. It provide a relatively speedy connection between MCC and downtown Toronto. Notionally I would expect costs to be about ~4-5 billion dollars. So, in total, for the western branches there would be a similar 6-7 billion dollar price tag.
That would bring the total price tag of what I'm proposing to 20-25 billion dollars! Things add up quickly.
For that though we'd have a radically different regional transit network, with frequent all day service reaching almost all of the 416 and even good chunks of the 905, as well as a new E-W rapid transit link downtown. Surface transit would be more efficient due to higher turnover. The need for a Union Station tunnel or second Union Station would be obviated. Huge amounts of under-utilized industrial land would be ripe for redevelopment after being linked directly to downtown.
The cost is substantial, but in many ways no more than what's planned. If we actually wanted all day frequent service and RER like operations on the GO lines, we would likely be talking about 10 billion dollars at least. Likewise, if we wanted the full DRL to relieve Yonge we'd be talking about similar outlays. Similarly, ideas like extending the Danforth line to STC or Sheppard could be abandoned once those areas are served by the network I'm proposing, which would offer better service anyhow.
GO lines could also be rationalized quite a bit since these regional networks would cannibalize the busiest parts of pretty much everything but the Lakeshore and Barrie Lines.
Attachments
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I find the northwest branch most curious.
I wouldn't have it follow all of the rail corridor to Pearson though. Instead, have it go under Dixon Road to serve the areas there.
This has been proposed a few times before and some have dismissed it as being underused. But I figure that the line could steal 30% of the Bloor-Danforth riders in western Toronto and half the Spadina riders. Couple this with all the feeder bus routes, new ridership, connection to downtown and the airport, this line could be very successful.
I wouldn't have it follow all of the rail corridor to Pearson though. Instead, have it go under Dixon Road to serve the areas there.
This has been proposed a few times before and some have dismissed it as being underused. But I figure that the line could steal 30% of the Bloor-Danforth riders in western Toronto and half the Spadina riders. Couple this with all the feeder bus routes, new ridership, connection to downtown and the airport, this line could be very successful.