junctionist
Senior Member
You'll probably want it in a rural area where it'll be surrounded by empty fields. And why not? I don't get the impression you're a masochist.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
You'll probably want it in a rural area where it'll be surrounded by empty fields. And why not? I don't get the impression you're a masochist.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/765966--are-anti-lrt-activists-being-railroaded
Are anti-LRT activists being railroaded?
Group says officials ignore their concerns over light rail expansion on Sheppard Ave.
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter
They say they're being railroaded – and it's not just the urbanites living along the Georgetown GO corridor who are complaining.
Objections to the region's galloping transit expansion have spread to the typically more passive suburbs.
Resistance is popping up from Etobicoke to Scarborough where some residents fear light rail lines along Eglinton and Sheppard will create traffic chaos with delayed left turns and less room for cars, dividing communities down the middle with dedicated streetcar rights-of-way.
They want transit. But they want subways.
Governments should find a way to make development pay for them, say the members of a community group called Save Our Sheppard.
Many of its concerns echo those published in a recent TTC report on the disastrous management and cost overruns on the St. Clair streetcar right-of-way.
But when they've talked to politicians and transit officials, group members say they have been ignored.
Save Our Sheppard's Denis Lanoue, a seasoned community activist, attended one of the TTC's public consultations on the Sheppard West LRT.
He said no one there would listen to his concerns about St. Clair.
"They just wanted to have input on whether it should be in-ground or above ground for the connection with the Sheppard subway.
"The other issue was whether we should have an overpass or underpass for the GO train. This was the only input they were asking for. I had the feeling this thing was shoved down our throat."
"These public consultation meetings are information-out meetings and they don't want your feedback. It's just a farce," said Patricia Sinclair of SOS, who thinks the LRT is too slow to entice drivers onto transit.
"You get in the car and you go 60 kilometres per hour and you get on the streetcar and you go 12 kilometres per hour," said Sinclair.
"If you're trying to pull people on (transit) and you're trying to get less traffic, you've got to give them transit they will use. Where is the analysis of not just the costs but the benefits?"
Ontario's new transportation minister knows that, with more than a decade of transit construction on the books, communication will be as challenging as project management in the years ahead as the heavy machines roar into established neighbourhoods.
"I will be in conversation with both the people trying to get those projects done and the communities so that we can find the common good in this," said Kathleen Wynne.
"This (transit expansion) is about building for now and for the future. As the minister, I take a lot of responsibility for working with communities so that they know what it is we're trying to do and we can make common cause."
But there's no sign the province is going to reconsider its support for GO's regional expansion or the TTC's light rail plan.
"I really think we need to keep going," Wynne said. "Metrolinx has really worked hard over the last months and years, the City of Toronto has worked very hard and we've committed billions of dollars. We need to keep going. There will be ongoing discussion always."
Both downtown and suburban residents say their complaints and concerns have nothing to do with NIMBYism.
"We're not talking about our own backyards. We're talking about neighbourhoods," said Patrick Sherman of Save Our Sheppard.
"I've been living in that same house for over 30 years. I didn't know until 18 months ago that we were actually classified as a priority neighbourhood.
"I'm very much in support of helping those who have difficulty helping themselves. I'm a social activist as much as I am a neighbourhood activist.
"Everybody deserves a shot at a fair life. We went to TTC meetings where we were just dismissed."
Are anti-LRT activists being railroaded?
Group says officials ignore their concerns over light rail expansion on Sheppard Ave.
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter
They say they're being railroaded – and it's not just the urbanites living along the Georgetown GO corridor who are complaining.
Objections to the region's galloping transit expansion have spread to the typically more passive suburbs.
Resistance is popping up from Etobicoke to Scarborough where some residents fear light rail lines along Eglinton and Sheppard will create traffic chaos with delayed left turns and less room for cars, dividing communities down the middle with dedicated streetcar rights-of-way.
They want transit. But they want subways.
Governments should find a way to make development pay for them, say the members of a community group called Save Our Sheppard.
Many of its concerns echo those published in a recent TTC report on the disastrous management and cost overruns on the St. Clair streetcar right-of-way.
But when they've talked to politicians and transit officials, group members say they have been ignored.
Save Our Sheppard's Denis Lanoue, a seasoned community activist, attended one of the TTC's public consultations on the Sheppard West LRT.
He said no one there would listen to his concerns about St. Clair.
"They just wanted to have input on whether it should be in-ground or above ground for the connection with the Sheppard subway.
"The other issue was whether we should have an overpass or underpass for the GO train. This was the only input they were asking for. I had the feeling this thing was shoved down our throat."
"These public consultation meetings are information-out meetings and they don't want your feedback. It's just a farce," said Patricia Sinclair of SOS, who thinks the LRT is too slow to entice drivers onto transit.
"You get in the car and you go 60 kilometres per hour and you get on the streetcar and you go 12 kilometres per hour," said Sinclair.
"If you're trying to pull people on (transit) and you're trying to get less traffic, you've got to give them transit they will use. Where is the analysis of not just the costs but the benefits?"
Ontario's new transportation minister knows that, with more than a decade of transit construction on the books, communication will be as challenging as project management in the years ahead as the heavy machines roar into established neighbourhoods.
"I will be in conversation with both the people trying to get those projects done and the communities so that we can find the common good in this," said Kathleen Wynne.
"This (transit expansion) is about building for now and for the future. As the minister, I take a lot of responsibility for working with communities so that they know what it is we're trying to do and we can make common cause."
But there's no sign the province is going to reconsider its support for GO's regional expansion or the TTC's light rail plan.
"I really think we need to keep going," Wynne said. "Metrolinx has really worked hard over the last months and years, the City of Toronto has worked very hard and we've committed billions of dollars. We need to keep going. There will be ongoing discussion always."
Both downtown and suburban residents say their complaints and concerns have nothing to do with NIMBYism.
"We're not talking about our own backyards. We're talking about neighbourhoods," said Patrick Sherman of Save Our Sheppard.
"I've been living in that same house for over 30 years. I didn't know until 18 months ago that we were actually classified as a priority neighbourhood.
"I'm very much in support of helping those who have difficulty helping themselves. I'm a social activist as much as I am a neighbourhood activist.
"Everybody deserves a shot at a fair life. We went to TTC meetings where we were just dismissed."
GTS
Active Member
I read that article and I thought at least for me personally I am grateful for the investment in transit here in Toronto lately. Sure not everyone can get a subway station on their corner but this LRT plan does bring some good rapid transit to a lot of areas of Toronto that a similar sized investment in Subways wouldn't.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
A lot of the complaints are by people who want to continue using their cars. Finally, we are seeing development where the pedestrian and transit is in the forefront. It is the car that has divided communities, and the more we turn our backs on the car the better for the community along all LRT routes.
The Mad Navigator
Banned
What I don't understand is why these people always have to look at the negative side of transit if it's NOT subway? There are positives that will come out of this such as the start of a better community bonding scenario. I never thought about this before, but look at how strong the communites along Queen West and Queen East are? The same will happen with Sheppard East over time.... Maybe not in our lifetimes, but eventually it will.
leopetr
Active Member
LOL. I'd love to live on a planet where Walmart would give us $500 million out of the goodness of their hearts.
As for development paying for it, it's called supply and demand. If we tax development along Sheppard too much, then the development will happen in Brampton instead. Developers build condos because it's a good business opportunity. If we make it into a bad business opportunity, they'll be happy to plonk down subdivisions in a greenfield somewhere instead.
Conclusions of the report: Change the approach as follows to make sure problems don't recur.
Conclusions of the complainers: Never do anything again.
MATH FAIL. You can't compare average speeds to maximum speeds.
Have you ever driven down Spadina? There's a constant barrage of intersections, heavy pedestrian flows, and delivery trucks taking up three lanes. You'd be lucky if you averaged 20 km/h in your car. 15 km/h is more likely.
It's in in the cost-benefit analyses that Metrolinx and TTC have been publishing for the last five years. You can't ignore documents just because they don't support your pet position.
junctionist
Senior Member
If transit isn't fast, it makes sense in many suburban communities to keep driving. Making it harder and more expensive to drive when it makes sense for person just degrades their standard of living.
leopetr
Active Member
1. LRT is a 30% or better speed improvement over the buses that are in place now. The ride is smoother and service is more reliable.
2. The road is being widened so cars are keeping exactly the same amount of roadspace. They are not losing lanes on Sheppard.
3. A full LRT vehicle takes 200 cars off the road. Good transit service significantly reduces traffic congestion, making life easier for car drivers.
kettal
Banned
Patricia Sinclair must be the luckiest driver in town, she always goes at 60 km/h without hitting any stoplights or traffic jams. 
Maybe if Save our Sheppard brought forth some non-fantasy reasoning, they would be better heard?
Maybe if Save our Sheppard brought forth some non-fantasy reasoning, they would be better heard?
sixrings
Senior Member
No real problem with TC other then I wish the sheppard Subway could either be extended to downsview OR converted to LRT eliminating a transfer and again continuing to Downsview...
nfitz
Superstar
Given how anti-TTC the comments have been on Twitter in the last few weeks, I was watching the #ttc this morning to see if this got any mention.
I'm quite amused that the only two people who mentioned it are a couple of well known very right-wing racists, who when they are not complaining about the TTC and Unions, spend much of their time posting links denigrating Muslims.
Not that I think that is the mindset of those who oppose it ... more an indication of how little interest there is on the subject!
drum118
Superstar
What are these NIMBY complaining about as there nothing there now and I have the photo's to prove it??
When I was looking at this area last fall, I said this was a good location for the carhouse.
There a small housing development to the east, nursing home on the south-east side.
I just found out that there is to be a k-12 school on the east side of the carhouse that will be in between the houses and the carhouse.
To the west, there is the work yard and industries.
Traffic is very light during the day as well pm peak.
When I was looking at this area last fall, I said this was a good location for the carhouse.
There a small housing development to the east, nursing home on the south-east side.
I just found out that there is to be a k-12 school on the east side of the carhouse that will be in between the houses and the carhouse.
To the west, there is the work yard and industries.
Traffic is very light during the day as well pm peak.
kettal
Banned
Keithz, remember last week when I said some of the nimby crowd was basing their case on misconceptions and false information, and you were like "no way"... now do you understand what I meant?
DavidH
Senior Member
I suspect it has a lot more to do with not bothering to pay attention until construction starts, and then complaining that you weren't consulted. Sigh.
I also was fairly appalled at the argument over the GO Agincourt work on Sheppard. Apparently, the local neighbourhood should have the absolute right to control whether GO expansion should be allowed on the corridor!
davidlivesintoronto
"You may raise money enough to tunnel a mountain,
I'm sorry, but is the extension of Sheppard to include a transfer, or will the light rail work harmoniously with the underground subway portion? If not, is it impossible for the city to amalgamate the two transits? If not, couldn't the TTC order trains that are compatible with both subway and LRT, and move the existing subway trains onto the Yonge/Bloor lines -in effect reducing the number of new subways to be delivered from Thunder Bay, meanwhile providing a better, seamless service along Sheppard...?