Transit City Plan

[SlickFranky]

LRT like any technology has its place. Hurontario requires an LRT. I really can't speak about Finch though. Maybe BRT would be sufficient there?

According to Metrolinx, Projected peak pphpd ridership in 2031;
Hurontario - 4000
Finch West - 3500

Considering the margin of error on these numbers, these 2 lines might as well be considered identical.

 

[Dan416]

According to Metrolinx, Projected peak pphpd ridership in 2031;
Hurontario - 4000
Finch West - 3500

Considering the margin of error on these numbers, these 2 lines might as well be considered identical.

Well Hurontario is also the spine of Mississauga and Brampton's transit network. So it's a little different. But I'll concede those estimated levels of ridership are similar.

 

[gweed123]

Well Hurontario is also the spine of Mississauga and Brampton's transit network. So it's a little different. But I'll concede those estimated levels of ridership are similar.

A while ago someone else and I (I forget off the top of my head who it was) did some number crunching on the pphpd of the Woodroffe bus lanes. It came out to between 3,500 pphpd and 4,000 pphpd. These bus lanes function very well, and there is little to no evidence of bunching or delays.

I just looked in the "Technology Choice Report" for the Ottawa LRT project, and they have the projected demands by 2031, and it's at around 4,500 pphpd for the section from Baseline to Knoxdale. If you look at the TMP for the 2031 timeframe, this section is still listed as BRT. It isn't until after the 2031 timeframe the "long-term plan" that it gets upgraded to LRT. The report is available here: http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/tc/2009/10-21/Delcan - Rail System Study.pdf

There is no single point where BRT stops becoming viable and LRT starts becoming viable. There's an overlap of a few thousand pphpd. It's interesting how different cities define this border differently though. In the report that I mentioned above, they put the threshold of BRT to LRT at around 8,000 pphpd (page 11).

Personally, for at-grade options, I see BRT being useful from between 1,500 pphpd to about 5,500 pphpd (depending on operating environment obviously, I'm assuming the case of a typical suburban arterial). LRT for the same scenario I see being effective from about 4,000 pphpd to about 10,000 pphpd. Grade-separated BRT is effective from about 3,000 pphpd to around 10,000 pphpd, with grade-separated LRT being effective from 8,000 pphpd to about 20,000 pphpd. It's when a line's projected capacity falls within these grey areas that debate can ensue over which technology choice is more appropriate.

 

[lafard]

According to Steve Munro: ( http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5109 )

Recently, I learned that Queen’s Park had offered $2b toward the Sheppard Subway provided that the Fords would allow the eastern part of Eglinton to remain on the surface, but this was turned down flat. So intransigent is the Mayor on the subject of incursion by transit into road space that the possibility of substantial funding for his pet project was not an option worth embracing.

Basically, sounds like a small added commitment in addition to the savings from leaving Eg East at the surface would have paid for the Sheppard line.

Sheppard line is stupid, but it looks like Ford is a drooling moron.

 

[Dan416]

Wow I would have taken those $2 billion dollars for the Sheppard subway in exchange for Eglinton East at surface!

 

[doady]

So the stupidity of an all-underground LRT could have been avoided AND funding for the much-need completion of the Sheppard subway could have been secured at the same time? Too bad...

 

[Eug]

Wow I would have taken those $2 billion dollars for the Sheppard subway in exchange for Eglinton East at surface!

Nowhere in there does Steve Munro say that the $2 billion was new money. If it was the same overall funding, I think a lot of voters would agree with keeping it in Eglinton.

 

[Dan416]

Nowhere in there does Steve Munro say that the $2 billion was new money. If it was the same overall funding, I think a lot of voters would agree with keeping it in Eglinton.

I would have kept the ECLRT as planned and built part of the Sheppard subway instead for sure.

 

[Eug]

I would have kept the ECLRT as planned and built part of the Sheppard subway instead for sure.

No doubt. I'm sure some others would have too.

However, I was always uncomfortable with the Sheppard subway idea that Ford was pushing so hard for in his campaign. I was afraid he'd implement the Sheppard subway and screw over Eglinton line.

Instead he's implementing the Eglinton line as subway, and (effectively) screwing over the Sheppard subway. Given the choice between the two, I think the latter is much better.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Don't forget Finch. That's getting screwed over too. And the Scarborough extension to Malvern.

But the math isn't complete. The Fords are bragging that the travel time from Kennedy to Laird will fall from 28 minutes to 14 if the line is all underground, instead of the mere 20 minutes for at-grade. Six magnificent minutes! So, with five further minutes, Joe Scarborough can arrive at Eglinton station, change to the Yonge line, and in eight more minutes arrive at Bloor-Yonge. 14+5+8=27. That's only five minutes more than it currently takes to get there via Bloor-Danforth (22). All in all, the two billion dollar loss of Sheppard and Finch buys us six minutes, so that Joe only loses a net five minutes in going downtown via Eglinton.

The Golden Mile Miracle Metro is truly a thing worth celebrating! Ford's in his flivver, All's well with the world.

 

[Eug]

You're suggesting two things, which may or may not be accurate.

1) Everyone wants to go downtown.
2) The Bloor-Danforth crosstown line can handle the capacity going forward.

The solution here in the future may not be to push everyone onto Bloor Danforth & and Yonge, but to have a downtown relief line. If the Eglinton line truly does get built as subway, then the rest of the lines excluding the downtown relief lines that would get built should be LRT or BRT.

However, one wonders when that downtown relief line should get built. Should it get built before Finch LRT (or subway)? Should Finch just get "enhanced bus" and then maybe BRT in the interim?

 

[CapitalSeven]

No, you're suggesting that I'm suggesting that. I said what I said, not what you thought I said. Certainly some of Joe's neighbours are going crosstown or north, so the 1/3 billion per minute saved won't be entirely in vain. And yes, the Bloor-Danforth line will hit overload some day, particulary if there's no money left to build the DRL, which his vastjesty has rendered more likely

 

[Electrify]

Wow I would have taken those $2 billion dollars for the Sheppard subway in exchange for Eglinton East at surface!

Even better: Have Eglinton elevated in the east end and take $1 billion for Sheppard.

Side topic, but how would you feel if we adjusted all of our local routes to Transit City styled stop spacing (approximately 400m-600m, from the current 100m-300m)? We could greatly improve the performance of our surface routes, while still more than adequately meeting local needs.

 

[Dan416]

Even better: Have Eglinton elevated in the east end and take $1 billion for Sheppard.

Side topic, but how would you feel if we adjusted all of our local routes to Transit City styled stop spacing (approximately 400m-600m, from the current 100m-300m)? We could greatly improve the performance of our surface routes, while still more than adequately meeting local needs.

You mean buses or streetcars? I think both can benefit from reducing the number of stops. Especially illogical ones.

 

[ShonTron]

There are places where bus stops are too close together, but they aren't that common. I would not support a system-wide cut of bus stops; but some changes on a case-by-case basis.

Streetcar stops will have to be rethought when the new LRVs arrive, as one end could be at Victoria and the other end at Yonge Street (same for the York-University-Simcoe-McCaul-John spacing on Queen West). The common argument for keeping Victoria Street is to serve St. Mike's but the back of a westbound 501 would be pretty much at Victoria anyway. All-door boarding provides the best of both worlds; reducing the number of stops, while decreasing dwell times but also letting people on and off along the whole car.

I would expect (and hope) that Sunday stops would also be eliminated; I believe they are being removed on Roncy because of the bump-out design for level boarding of low-floor cars.

I would hope all stops at Victoria and Simcoe (and Dundas/Chestnut and others) would go.