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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
My understanding there would be no savings at least in the present., The stations would be large for one so the extra constructions costs and labour. I went to an open house design for Keele and the station was really small. I was told its a box about the the size of the LRT which is why they could not add another entrance that i enquired about and felt should be there. they said they would need to build a foundation and then the stairs, etc. And this was just to add another entrance never mind you would need a way bigger box for the subway cars and platform

Also, the ink has dried on the blueprints, design, orders, etc. Because the trains only get power from overhead wires, the tunnels need to be larger to accommodate them.

If all options were on the table, an Eglinton subway using metro trains would probably come to $7 billion, while using light rail vehicles comes to $8 billion.

Thank you both for indulging my curiosity.

I guess its way too late, but had this underground vs not debate been happening years ago, a metro underground would in my opinion have been a workable compromise. Enough to roughly get Sheppard built and the finch LRT (I think?)
 
Why not have full signal priority during off peak times and limited priority during rush hour?

I think what makes more sense is to have 800-1000m spacing during hush hour and 400-800m spacing the rest of the day. That should allow the line to continue interlined.
 
So there has been a lot of talk about how to upgrade the SRT, but there has been very little talk about what to do during the 4 years that the SRT is going to be shut down. I put some thought into it, and I came up with a low-cost way to keep the replacement buses actually moving while construction is underway.

What I came up with is the idea of a Scaborough Busway, running primarily through the hydro corridor. The corridor has 3 distinct segments:

1) Mixed traffic from STC to the hydro corridor, with maybe some queue jump lanes at major intersections. Widening McCowan would be too expensive.

2) Hydro corridor BRT with a dedicated roadway. Far side stops at all major intersections, with the station areas being 4 lanes to allow for passing.

3) Hydro corridor BRT through the narrow hydro ROW leading down to Kennedy Station.

Scarborough Busway.jpg


What I envision is a couple different bus routes using this Busway to reach Kennedy. I also envision an express bus from STC to Kennedy, with few to no stops in between. There can be 5 or 6 bus routes throughout Scarborough that can be rerouted to use this Busway, especially the ones that used to dump passengers off onto the SRT.

I have also included a possible eastward extension to Morningside, using the hydro corridor. I have also shown mixed traffic branches to Malvern and to UTSC. This extension would allow the Busway to still have a usefulness even after the SLRT is in operation.

I think that this solution is the best way to avoid total bus gridlock while the SRT is shut down.
 

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Well Dr Chong who was on The City said that studies show Spadina and St. Clair runs from 10-15km buses run up to 24 and subways from 30-32. I find it hard to believe streetcars run that slow,

Then Doug Ford says when it snowed this week they shut down St. Clair. I cannot believe this. He will go to any length to crisitcize St. Clair. St. Clair is only bad if you are a driver and now have only 1 lane to drive across. its great for everyone else. Then he says there was some U.S official visiting Toronto and when they saw streetcars they were amazed like in that Toronto is backwards. And Doug says you do not see streetcars anywhere in the world and that buses hold more people. What lies. And he said all this right after a caller said she can get to downtown Toronto from Etobicoke in 20 min yet she needs to wait for Royal York bus 20 min, Yet Doug goes on to tout the benefits of buses. Did he not understand the question about having to wait so long for the bus most likely because of the Ford service cuts.
 
How about paving a lane in the SRT corridor itself for busses to run through while they're doing a conversion. There seems to be enough space for that.
 
Well Dr Chong who was on The City said that studies show Spadina and St. Clair runs from 10-15km buses run up to 24 and subways from 30-32. I find it hard to believe streetcars run that slow.

>> This is an apple and oranges comparison, I think. Spadina & St. Clair (mostly Spadina) run slow as they're in a lot of traffic with a lot of streetlights. The other two numbers are the theoretical speeds. So, more obfuscation.

Then Doug Ford says when it snowed this week they shut down St. Clair. I cannot believe this. He will go to any length to crisitcize St. Clair. St. Clair is only bad if you are a driver and now have only 1 lane to drive across. its great for everyone else. Then he says there was some U.S official visiting Toronto and when they saw streetcars they were amazed like in that Toronto is backwards. And Doug says you do not see streetcars anywhere in the world and that buses hold more people. What lies. And he said all this right after a caller said she can get to downtown Toronto from Etobicoke in 20 min yet she needs to wait for Royal York bus 20 min, Yet Doug goes on to tout the benefits of buses. Did he not understand the question about having to wait so long for the bus most likely because of the Ford service cuts.

Doug's pretty much an ass, it's become pretty obvious.

I drove along St. Clair today (albeit Sunday, I understand) and it was great. My daughter had a game at Phil White (Cedarvale) arena, and we went via the Viaduct/Church/Davenport/Bathurst/Vaughn Road. Slow, particularly Davenport, despite no traffic. Came back via St. Clair to Mt. Pleasant -- only spots of trouble were where cars were parked in 'no standing' zones, therefore cutting us down to one lane from two. So... car drivers who don't obey the signs are the real trouble?

The Bathurst/St. Clair/Vaughn Rd intersection looks way better than it has for years -- new condos, new stores, Albert's looking good. Lots of folks strolling on a cold day. Methinks folks who had the streetcar protest too much.
 
Well Dr Chong who was on The City said that studies show Spadina and St. Clair runs from 10-15km buses run up to 24 and subways from 30-32. I find it hard to believe streetcars run that slow,

Then Doug Ford says when it snowed this week they shut down St. Clair. I cannot believe this. He will go to any length to crisitcize St. Clair. St. Clair is only bad if you are a driver and now have only 1 lane to drive across. its great for everyone else. Then he says there was some U.S official visiting Toronto and when they saw streetcars they were amazed like in that Toronto is backwards. And Doug says you do not see streetcars anywhere in the world and that buses hold more people. What lies. And he said all this right after a caller said she can get to downtown Toronto from Etobicoke in 20 min yet she needs to wait for Royal York bus 20 min, Yet Doug goes on to tout the benefits of buses. Did he not understand the question about having to wait so long for the bus most likely because of the Ford service cuts.

Doug Ford is pushing BS, however Dr Chong is right when he talks about the speed of St Clair and Spadina streetcars. TTC's own figures are 15 - 16 kph for St Clair, and even less for Spadina.

Of course, buses do not do 24 kph on average; that speed is possible in suburban areas off-peak, but the design speed is 17 - 18 kph for most of routes. During the peak on busy streets, it can be much less than 15 kph; and during snowfalls, some bus routes can do less than 5 kph :) [a few times during a snowfall, I made it from Bathurst to Yonge on foot and overtook the 32 Eglinton bus].
 
It's getting confusing to figure out which thread to post these kinds of links, but here's the latest on the transit wars: http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhal...o-should-be-on-the-toronto-transit-commission

It has this gem of a quote from Doug Ford:
“I think that’s a great idea,” the mayor said of an all-citizen TTC. “The less politicians, the better.”
Added Doug Ford (Ward 2, Etobicoke North): “I don’t think politicians should be in the business of running business.”

That's great Doug. I will make sure not to use any label and tag businesses run by politicians. May I also suggest that businessmen such as you and your brother should not be in the politics of running our city and its public transportation system?

On the whole, the article reports on Ford and his cronies getting all up in arms about how transit planning has come to a standstill and everyone's confused about how to move forward. No mention about how council has already established an unambiguous policy for the Eglinton LRT, that they will be establishing a policy for Sheppard this month, and that the Government of Ontario has accepted council's decision as supreme. Transit planning is fine. It's Ford who is confused, and his tenure as mayor that is at a standstill and without a plan.
 
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Well Dr Chong who was on The City said that studies show Spadina and St. Clair runs from 10-15km buses run up to 24 and subways from 30-32. I find it hard to believe streetcars run that slow,

Then Doug Ford says when it snowed this week they shut down St. Clair. I cannot believe this. He will go to any length to crisitcize St. Clair. St. Clair is only bad if you are a driver and now have only 1 lane to drive across. its great for everyone else. Then he says there was some U.S official visiting Toronto and when they saw streetcars they were amazed like in that Toronto is backwards. And Doug says you do not see streetcars anywhere in the world and that buses hold more people. What lies. And he said all this right after a caller said she can get to downtown Toronto from Etobicoke in 20 min yet she needs to wait for Royal York bus 20 min, Yet Doug goes on to tout the benefits of buses. Did he not understand the question about having to wait so long for the bus most likely because of the Ford service cuts.

That caller is being disingenuous.. Sure, maybe on a Sunday night at 11pm. That streetcar routinely takes an hour to get downtown or back from Etobicoke. It's the absolute slowest POS I had the displeasure of riding.
 
That caller is being disingenuous.. Sure, maybe on a Sunday night at 11pm. That streetcar routinely takes an hour to get downtown or back from Etobicoke. It's the absolute slowest POS I had the displeasure of riding.

But I think she was complaining because though its only 20 min for the subway ride she has to wait 20 min for the Royal York bus to come to take her to the subway I guess. But considering its Royal York, I also doubt the buses there run that frequent anyways. Most of those people who live on Royal York most likely use the car to go anywhere so the TTC must know this so service is slower. I doubt the Avenue Rd bus is also frequent. I was waiting once for a bus at Avenue Road and St. Clair I gave up and walked north on Avenue instead. But its the fact the caller is voicing displeasure of having to wait for the bus for 20 m in and then Doug Ford starts putting down streetcars and that they are slow. Did he not hear she said bus and not streetcar as there is no streetcar running down Royal York. And she even mentioned that he never talks about Etobicoke (he must obviously think no one in Etobicoke rides public transit). He hears what he wants to hear I guess. The fact that he could say that no where in the world uses them (meaning streetcars) when its the opposite with LRT is unreal. And it would appear those screened calls must mean only those callers agreeable to the Fords get through. If they truly got tough calls they would not be able to handle them.
 
But I think she was complaining because though its only 20 min for the subway ride she has to wait 20 min for the Royal York bus to come to take her to the subway I guess. But considering its Royal York, I also doubt the buses there run that frequent anyways. Most of those people who live on Royal York most likely use the car to go anywhere so the TTC must know this so service is slower. I doubt the Avenue Rd bus is also frequent. I was waiting once for a bus at Avenue Road and St. Clair I gave up and walked north on Avenue instead. But its the fact the caller is voicing displeasure of having to wait for the bus for 20 m in and then Doug Ford starts putting down streetcars and that they are slow. Did he not hear she said bus and not streetcar as there is no streetcar running down Royal York. And she even mentioned that he never talks about Etobicoke (he must obviously think no one in Etobicoke rides public transit). He hears what he wants to hear I guess. The fact that he could say that no where in the world uses them (meaning streetcars) when its the opposite with LRT is unreal. And it would appear those screened calls must mean only those callers agreeable to the Fords get through. If they truly got tough calls they would not be able to handle them.
Again, I find her call strange. I've never waited more than 10 mins for that bus, routinely 5. They tend to come quite frequently anyway (compared to the 66 at least). They take about 15 mins to reach the subway and another 20 to get downtown. Many times this is much faster than taking the streetcar.

I don't know.. It's my personal experiences with the thing that makes me hate them so passionately. If I can't rely on my express bus, I just drive.
 
when i lived in Etobes I really felt that the system is there to confuse you and waste your time. what they should be telling people is to walk to their nearest arterial (Islington, Kipling, Royal York), which for most people is maximum 10 min, and comes pretty frequently because of all the big towers up near the 401. once your on an arterial bus you'll be at the subway really soon. instead they have a bunch of random ones that confuse you, and they come every 37.5 min and stop at random times of day so you need to memorize the schedule.these buses will but drop you off a 7 minute walk from home. dumb if you ask me.
 
Great article about the current Transit City Debate:

As a subway advocate, his views are pretty much in line with mine, and I'd say the majority of ppl on both sides of the spectrum would agree with this reasonable piece.

BEYOND THE HEADLINES: Transit solution will require compromise
Scarborough Mirror
Fri Mar 2 2012
Page: 1
Section: News
Byline: DAVID SOKNACKI

Everyone wants transit to benefit themselves. But each stakeholder group wants some else to pay for it. To date, we've seen key players advocating completely different visions, and dividing up areas of the city into winners and losers.

The next steps are so uncertain that no one can now tell what may occur with respect to transit. There is even the possibility that we may lose transit planning for the rest of this council term. However, the realization that no one can get a complete victory has now sunk in, which may be enough to concentrate attention so that we get a solution for most residents.

Take for example the group of developers who met with the mayor earlier this week. Of course they favour subways. Being able to build more density atop a subway line can increase the profitability of their projects. But do not ask them to pay extra. As they made very clear after the meeting, they have no interest in adding larger development charges to finance new transit.

Go out to the suburbs, and ask if residents support subways. Pollsters did. They found that a majority wanted underground transit. Somehow missing in the questions was whether suburbanites were willing to pay higher taxes, zone based fares, or whether they would accept increased densities.

Take a trip downtown, where about half of trips are by transit. Downtowners, who are the least reliant on automobile travel, happily advocate in favour of tolls. Their funding solution requires most commuters, except perhaps themselves, to pay for additional transit.

Now observe the workings of our suburban community councils. No issue causes more indignation than a condominium project that proposes additional densities on a property. Never mind that additional units are the surest route to new transit. Instead, councillors almost unanimously see their ability to offload density to their neighbours as a duty. They only come together on this issue to complain when the Ontario Municipal Board constrains their right to do so.

Next take a look at the wider demographics. We live in Toronto. But fewer of us work downtown, or commute elsewhere in the city.

Although we say we want transit, outside of downtown we will use it mainly for recreational and personal use. Not being compelled to use transit, suburbanites don't.

Finally, consider the position of the provincial government, often transit's paymaster of last resort. Not only does it have financial challenges of its own, but it is quick to point to the city's new abilities to raise funds through the City of Toronto Act. In other words, it tells the city to pay for its own transit.

A creative mayor can turn this chaos into a solution. Common to all participants is agreement that we need additional transit, which requires funding. Although there are widely differing views on who pays how much, it is the job of the mayor, assisted by the TTC and other key stakeholders to pull together both demands and ability to pay from each participant.

As yet we cannot tell what the solution will look like. The result may not construct the full Sheppard subway or prioritize the downtown relief line. It certainly should not give any party the satisfaction of getting benefits without proportionate cost.

However, since we are at the point where key players realize they can only obstruct but not achieve any progress, we have the opportunity for a solution.
 

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