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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
I doubt I am the only one who finds it ironic the Toronto Taxpayers Coalition is pushing for subways. I hope they realize new taxes will be required to pay for subways.

Ah scratch that. Looking at their website, it looks like an astroturf group. Set up by the Cons?
 
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"This streetcar would look better on Finch Ave. if it was a subway"

LoadingStreetCar.png


Yeah, and one can counter-argue that the scene in that photo is better-looking than anything along Finch Ave...
 
And he said over the radio, we don't want St. Clair disasters spread out over the city. I suppose it would be cool if all transit city lines including Finch had subways running under them!
 
And he said over the radio, we don't want St. Clair disasters spread out over the city. I suppose it would be cool if all transit city lines including Finch had subways running under them!

See St. Clair.

See St. Clair streetcar.

See St. Clair streetcar run better.

See St. Clair business better than before construction.

Rob Ford ignores the facts that St. Clair West is now better with the right-of-way.

See car. See car run. Run car run. Rob like cars.
 
Such a biased initiative, with an uninformed poll to release to the masses. People who do know what they're talking about when it comes to these things have to step up and say something, and provide the real polling questions.
 
I couldn't even read through this because it was so bad:

My mad Marge moment: Blizzard

BY CHRISTINA BLIZZARD, QMI AGENCY

TORONTO - Well, sir, there’s nothing on earth

Like a genuine, bona fide

Electrified, six-car monorail

What’d I say?

Monorail!

Cue the big blue hair.

I often feel like Marge in the Simpsons monorail episode in my lonely opposition to City Council’s plan to build light rail for the suburbs.

Springfield – or as I like to call it, Scarborough – gets conned into buying a monorail by a smooth-talking huckster.

Ring any bells so far?

Marge is the only person skeptical of the monorail salesman’s slick patter.

I think of her every time I hear a transit “expert” tell me how much better above-ground light rail would be.

And yes, I do live in Scarborough.

And Scarberians have had it up to our bluffs with light rail. We have our own version of Springfield’s monorail in the Scarborough LRT, which was foisted on us as a cost-cutting measure.

It’s unreliable, freezes up in the cold and is inconvenient.

We got it for exactly the reasons folk are now telling us we should have an above-ground LRT across Eglinton Ave. E. - it’s the best we can afford for Scarborough.

Other parts of the city get their own sleek underground trains.

Taxpayers spent billions to keep those running and recently made a massive investment in spiffy, state-of-the art trains for all those lucky people who live close to a downtown subway station.

But for Cinderella Scarborough? A ramshackle monorail is good enough.

The money always runs out when it comes to the suburbs.

Can’t afford to go underground, folks, so give up two lanes of a major east-west artery and put up with the construction nightmare that’s light rail.

Like so much else we’ve done with transit in this city, it lacks vision.

We’ve allowed a small group of downtown elitist politicians to dictate to the suburbs on transit.

Enough’s enough.

Toronto is not the centre of the transit universe any more. For too long, the TTC has stood in the way of progress. It must remember it’s part of a larger region.

We should include Durham, Mississauga and York in our plans.

We need the courage to move ahead with a master plan that puts transit lines where they need to be – not where they will line the pockets of political cronies.

Critics of underground transit say we can’t afford it.

Here’s how we can.

Any time a subway line goes through, businesses along that line make a windfall.

What kind of suckers are we to allow developers to profit from the billions in tax money we put into new subway lines?

Ask developers for cash up front - before the lines go in.

Then hand transit planning to the province’s Metrolinx agency and tell them to develop a region-wide, rational system.



Transportation Minister Bob Chiarelli said last week it would be a “slippery slope” for the provincial government to “micro manage” transit in the city.

“It’s an easy out for people to point the finger at the province and say, ‘take us out of our misery.’

“The problem is that the city of Toronto has to put it to a vote,” he said.

Mayor Rob Ford created the problem for himself when he signed the deal, making the transit plan contingent on council approval.

Now that it’s voted for the above-the-ground option, the province is unlikely to move in and overrule them.

The $8.4 billion the province has committed to Toronto transit is still on the table, both Chiarelli and Premier Dalton McGuinty said last week.

So spend the money wisely – and underground.

Look, we built the foundation of a great subway system – then stopped.

After the Yonge and Bloor lines were finished, we should have built a subway under Queen St.

There’s a station roughed in at Yonge for such a line.

It should have gone up Kingston Rd. - and out to the border with Pickering.

We didn’t have the vision.

What did we get?

Monorail!

Monorail!

Monorail!

Monorail!

D’oh!

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/25/my-mad-marge-moment-blizzard

Them "experts," with them fancy "educations" and "experience" are only the voice piece for the "LRT lobby." Doug Ford told me so!

Now Honest Rob, he's the man with the plan! Sure he has no transit or planning experience, nor does he have any idea about how to fund the line beyond claims that the private sector will pay for with no evidence to show, but gosh darn I like the cut of his jib!

Seriously, this article is an insult to even the dumbest Sun readers. I'm beginning to think that Ford is funneling taxpayer's dollars to this rag in order for it to keep supporting him. I can't think of any other reason why they would try so hard (and fail so miserably) to defend him.

Finally, the great irony here is that I'd argue that a good monorail line would in fact be a very good fit for Eglinton. Certainly would make more sense than going entirely underground.
 
Those that are well versed on this topic and the intricacies of developing transit should be the ones who come up with the proposals and the options up for debate. Not some biased, cars only administration who cares nothing for overall efficiency to move the most number of people effectively.

With their half ass poll question as to whether people prefer subways in general to get people to vote against a specific LRT plan which actually exists....
 
I doubt I am the only one who finds it ironic the Toronto Taxpayers Coalition is pushing for subways. I hope they realize new taxes will be required to pay for subways.

Ah scratch that. Looking at their website, it looks like an astroturf group. Set up by the Cons?


Wonder if they would support ads that say, Vote for a 10% tax increase and Road Tolls. Save the Subways!
 
See St. Clair.

See St. Clair streetcar.

See St. Clair streetcar run better.

See St. Clair business better than before construction.

Rob Ford ignores the facts that St. Clair West is now better with the right-of-way.

See car. See car run. Run car run. Rob like cars.

Where do your 'facts' come from?
 
AS one caller pointed out on the Ford's debut on 1010 Talk, why put a subway on Finch and Sheppard because they are so close together? Exactly. The Fords never thought of that. Then I say why not put subways along every major street. And then Rob Ford responds (don;t remember all of it) but that they can put dedicated bus lanes along Finch....don;t remember all of what he said. Well if you are going to put dedicated bus lanes then why not LRT? This makes no sense. And to think those people in Mammoliti's ward actually think Finch can get a subway.

Even one caller who lives in Scarborough said that she thinks there is nothing wrong with the way St. Clair is now compared to before and asked why he keeps saying its a disaster. They go to a commercial and when they get back does not answer her question and is back to talking about Sheppard subway again. This happened 2x when he did not answer a question and went to a commercial.

And the funniest part was when one person called in to ask something and I forget what it was now, but Ford gives him his telephone number and asks him to call him and he will have an answer for him. This is so unreal. As unreal as when both Fords were on 101o Talk Fri morning to plug their show and Doug Ford says that Rob takes 400 calls per day. Now even if he spends just 2 min per call, thats over 13 hours of being on the phone per day. Is he ever at City Hall? How can he say something that has no truth to it. Its impossible. And Doug says that he and Rob never talked about the show and what they would say. Another lie. I mean even the stations other shows have hosts that prepare and he expects us to believe they did not. There is is no way this can last. Before long The City will have other hosts
 
There's been a couple of mainstream media articles over the last year or two noting how things are no worse than before, if not better.

A you referring to ones like John Lorinc's recent peice in the Globe? Where it points to an increase in ridership of 13% as an indicator of success? Meanwhile the rest of the system has ridership growth of 16.8%. Or the the fact that even the 13% increase is predicated on ridership of 24,000 in 2005. Every source that I could find notes ridership of greater than 31,000. The EA for the LRT reports more than 32,000. Ridership between 1982 and 1984 was north of 40,000.

So after such a large 'investment' what did we get. A street that has less overall traffic (PV and PT). Lower peak PT usage (does the new ridership figures include utilization of the 2 hour transfer?). And a view that store fronts emptied from construction disruptions, now repopulated are an indicator of increased demand. How are gross rents on St. Clair doing?

Does every debate about transit have to void of facts, both here and at the city?
 
A you referring to ones like John Lorinc's recent peice in the Globe? Where it points to an increase in ridership of 13% as an indicator of success? Meanwhile the rest of the system has ridership growth of 16.8%. Or the the fact that even the 13% increase is predicated on ridership of 24,000 in 2005. Every source that I could find notes ridership of greater than 31,000. The EA for the LRT reports more than 32,000. Ridership between 1982 and 1984 was north of 40,000.

So after such a large 'investment' what did we get. A street that has less overall traffic (PV and PT). Lower peak PT usage (does the new ridership figures include utilization of the 2 hour transfer?). And a view that store fronts emptied from construction disruptions, now repopulated are an indicator of increased demand. How are gross rents on St. Clair doing?

Does every debate about transit have to void of facts, both here and at the city?

This is precisely why I think that light rail is a mistake. Light rail simply does not have a very high capacity - its capacity is far far lower than subway - and though cheaper to build than subways, it is still very costly. Also it is much slower than subways. A light rail line (on the surface) has a capacity of around 5000-7500 people/hour/direction. However, it requires removing two car lanes (or makes it impossible to widen to three lanes wach way), so it reduces capacity somewhat, say 1000 cars/hour/direction, and buses which might have a maximum capacity of 1000-2000/hour are removed. An underground light rail line might have a capacity of around 15000, which is still lower than a subway (around 30000) even though underground light rail is MORE expensive to build than subway.

Consequently the maximum number of people that surface light rail can handle at its peak point in a rush hour (assume rush hour lasts 4 hours, e.g. 6am-10am) is 30000, assuming 7500/hour/direction. Underground light rail would carry about 60000 in this period and subway would carry about 120000. So the three line Transit City plan would only be able to carry 30000+30000+60000+60000=180000 people to the subway (Eglinton line comes from 2 directions, while Finch was unfunded east of Keele so it goes to the subway once), though the Eglinton line would have limited capacity outside the tunneled sections. The vast majority of this capacity would be from the tunneled Eglinton line. The TC lines would be able to carry people the other direction and carry people who get off before they get to the subway, so the number of people carried in morning rush hour would likely be higher than this. However my point is that a tram line that carries at most 30000 people inbound in the morning rush hour, while reducing car capacity meaning that the net increase in capacity is less than this, is a drop in the bucket compared to Toronto's population. There are about 2.5 million people in Toronto and about 5.5 million people in the GTA. A small number of light rail lines cannot possibly handle more than a trivial fraction of trips within the GTA; even one subway line can only handle a small part of the travel demand in the GTA, many lines are needed if a substantial percentage (e.g. 50%) of GTA residents were to take the subway to work. Realistically even if the entire 7-line Miller Transit City proposal were built, probably no more than 10% of City of Toronto residents would have used them to get to work, and if significaly more people used them then they would become overcrowded. Building one heavy rail line on Eglinton (with higher capacity than underground LRT) would have a higher capacity than the entire 3-line Transit City system, and I think that we can afford to wait 10 years for funding for the Sheppard subway extension to become available when the economy improves, rather than settling for some half-assed tram line that requires excessive numbers of transfers.

The last thing Toronto needs is to become like unsuccessful American cities, such as San Diego and Los Angeles, with lousy light rail systems that few people use. In American cities like these, typically (a) the light rail lines cover a small percentage of the city, and most residents and most jobs are not near them (b) they are rather slow (c) 90%+ of people drive to work (d) the connecting bus service is terrible. Furthermore if more than a trivial fraction of the city's residents used the light rail system, it would become extremely overcrowded due to its low capacity.
 

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