Toronto Urban Sprawl Compared to Other Cities

[James]

Yes



No


City of Toronto's golf courses tend to be very old...they were created from farm land long before any development around them. When Metro was created and the post war boom was happening, the city signed deals in the 50's and 60's with 9 privately owned golf clubs to maintain green space. Golf courses would receive tax rebates as long as they remained golf courses. If they sold the land to developers, they would have to repay all deferred taxes plus interest. This was a mutually beneficial agreement that has worked to this day.

In total, there are 19 golf courses within the City of Toronto. Few major cities of the world can boast that kind of golfing within their city limits. The Toronto region is one of the great golfing destinations of the world, and a source of tourism. They are a great asset in more ways than one.

And these are some of the reasons I find the makeup of Toronto so unique in the world. As I've noted before, having prime sought-after leafy neighborhoods like Rosedale, Yorkville and the Annex so close (and right in) the downtown core only contributes to the health, the cachet, and the desire to live and work in the downtown sector.

 

[freshcutgrass]

And these are some of the reasons I find the makeup of Toronto so unique in the world. As I've noted before, having prime sought-after leafy neighborhoods like Rosedale, Yorkville and the Annex so close (and right in) the downtown core only contributes to the health, the cachet, and the desire to live and work in the downtown sector.

Trust me...if Manhattan had a Cabbagetown, you'd never hear the end of it.

Toronto is never going to end up being Manhattan or Paris...but it will end up being Toronto. Toronto's quirks will be what other people see as interesting and unique about it as the city becomes larger and more on the global radar. All that intact small-town victorian and edwardian built form will survive into the future, and set Toronto apart from other large cities.

The downside will be that if you think house prices in places like Cabbagetown is expensive now....it's nothing compared to what they will be. This inventory will never increase....condos will. Buy now!!!

 

[Long Island Mike]

Second homes outside of NYC...Primarily in the Summer...

That's what Long Island is for. Keep in mind that NYC has it's own municipal income tax on residents, so the wealthy save a lot of taxes by making their principal residence outside of NYC (you have to stay in NYC 184 days or more/year to qualify for NYC income tax).

FCG and Everyone: I noticed this mention of Long Island and I will add that a substantial percentage of wealthy NYC residents have second
homes in and around the NYC region...On Long Island the east-end Hamptons and the shoreline resort towns of Fire Island come to mind...
In New Jersey you have many Shore towns from Sandy Hook in the north to Long Beach Island in the south...Inland you have outer areas
such as the different mountain areas from NE PA's Poconos to New York's Catskills to the Berkshires in western Massachusetts...

There are some closer in areas but they tend to be very expensive with the high real estate prices and taxes for starters...Some of the
suburban NY counties have the highest per-capita property taxes in the US...I believe Westchester and Nassau County-bordering NYC-
are #1 and #2 respectively with this distinction...

I have also read that some affluent people sometimes move out of their apartments/condominiums in NYC and make their "second"
residences their primary ones - especially in later "retirement" years...Does any of Toronto's "getaway" communities compare?

I fully understand the need to have a second "getaway" place to live outside of the City - if you can afford this luxury...LI MIKE

 

[freshcutgrass]

I have also read that some affluent people sometimes move out of their apartments/condominiums in NYC and make their "second"
residences their primary ones - especially in later "retirement" years...Does any of Toronto's "getaway" communities compare?

In some respects...yes. But remember, Toronto city proper is full of the kind of large homes you find on large lots on Long Island, and what you can't find in Manhattan.

Toronto didn't take up apartment dwelling much until after WWII. In fact, they were banned in most areas of the city before the war, as the evils of "tenements" were trying to be avoided. Most people lived in some form of "house".

But if you are looking for large acreage, then yes, estates are found in the rolling rural land around Toronto (King City, Caledon, etc). But this is a newer thing than on Long Island. Some of the most impressive equestrian estates and massive palaces being built out there. I've seen a lot of them when I was working in the geothermal business a while back.

Also, on a more recreational note....The Hamptons are to NYC, what Muskoka is to Toronto (or the whole "cottage country" of the near north).

 

[King of Kensington]

I'll have to dig up the figures, but Toronto suburbia has pretty similar density to L.A., which has the densest suburbs in the U.S. NYC is characterized, going both north in Westchester and as well as in New Jersey, older satellite cities and then a lot of large lot, low density suburbia. Though Nassau County's 1950s suburbia has smaller lots.

 

[howl]

I'll have to dig up the figures, but Toronto suburbia has pretty similar density to L.A., which has the densest suburbs in the U.S. NYC is characterized, going both north in Westchester and as well as in New Jersey, older satellite cities and then a lot of large lot, low density suburbia. Though Nassau County's 1950s suburbia has smaller lots.

That is largely due to the Provincial Growth Plan legislation which requires most municipalities in the GTHA to meet a target of 50 people and jobs per hectare for all new "greenfield" development. For residential development, given the average people per unit numbers and the amount of land needed for community uses (roads, parks, schools etc.) the most common resulting housing type is townhouses. If you want 50' singles, which used to be the standard just 15 years ago, you can still build them, but you also need to build an apartment building next door so the density adds up to 50 people-per-hectare.

The other reason is Canadian banks are much more conservative with their money. They may give the average wage-earner $300,000 for a townhouse, but they won't give them $600,000 for a fully detached home, no matter how much they beg. In order to get GTHA developers to build more lower-density suburbs again Government regulations need to change AND either houses prices need to drop significantly or Canadian banks need to get much more stupid with their money.

 

[W. K. Lis]

These links are to videos that show how people used urban streets before they were overrun by automobile traffic.

1906 film of trolley trip along Market Street in San Francisco,
[video=youtube_share;NINOxRxze9k]http://youtu.be/NINOxRxze9k[/video]
​

 

[W. K. Lis]

1941 film of trolley trip along Market Street in San Francisco,
[video=youtube_share;wzqs6DF_wGE]http://youtu.be/wzqs6DF_wGE[/video]

 

[W. K. Lis]

2005 film of trolley trip along Market Street in San Francisco,

[video=youtube_share;Vqcz_tllnwM]http://youtu.be/Vqcz_tllnwM[/video]

 

[salsa]

Earlier this summer I was in Atlanta. I probably don't need to remind anyone that Atlanta has some of the worst urban sprawl on the planet, but I was just as turned off by their downtown. Recall what Richmond/Adelaide looked like about 10 years ago: one way traffic, parking lots, parking garages, and buildings that turn their back to the street. Now imagine a downtown where most streets looked just like that if not worse. I don't think I've ever seen a place with such exceptionally bad urban deign.

In Toronto, nobody likes the Westin Harbour Castle for obvious reasons. But in Atlanta, almost every major hotel is like that. They are supposed to bring hundreds of people to the downtown core, but these hotels are so bad that they only destroy streetlife.

Many of the office buildings are just as bad. The CNN Centre is the world headquarters for CNN. It should have been a landmark tower instead of an unpleasant concrete bunker.

The Georgia Pacific tower is the 2nd tallest building in Atlanta (#1 is that terrible Westin hotel), and yet the architects couldn't come up with a more worthy podium than this. It's a blank wall on 3 out of 4 sides. And like most office buildings in Atlanta, parking is located above ground across the street rather than underground.

When even the most landmark office buildings are a total dud at street level, expect even less from average buildings. Just a couple of examples:

 

[salsa]

Atlanta is not much different than most American cities when it comes to the sheer amount of parking, but they are just everywhere. Pretty much every large hotel or office building has a parking garage connected to it. In some areas there are several city blocks where there's nothing but parking garages.

Occasionally you will see a feeble attempt to diminish the presence of a parking garage by putting a restaurant on the bottom floor. This example is on Atlanta's main street, so frankly there shouldn't be a parking garage here in the first place. Then again, there shouldn't be a blank wall across from it either.

By now you probably notice that sky bridges are quite common around here, as if people don't like being on the street. Maybe it's because of the heat, or because it sucks to walk in downtown Atlanta.

Overall my impression of downtown Atlanta is that it's an incredibly cold and sterile place, and not just because of the buildings. In almost every photo you also see that the streets are one-way, which is only good for moving cars as quickly as possible. There are only a couple of nice streets with restaurants and all, but you have to walk past a ton of soulless building to get there, so I just went to a food court instead. Since almost no one lives here, the street life dies down as soon as everyone comes home from work. The downtown is basically just a central business district. There is little reason to be there unless you work here or there's a game happening. What a terrible city.

 

[JasonParis]

You may enjoy this piece I wrote for Spacing a number of years back...

Atlanta on My Mind

 

[christiesplits]

Thanks for the pics, Salsa. Those are quite the concrete vacuums.

 

[SunriseChampion]

It's almost beautiful in a sort of strange post-apocalyptic bunker kind of way.

It is dreary as all hell though. Worse even than the greyness of Toronto's towers in the middle of winter.

 

[junctionist]

It's almost beautiful in a sort of strange post-apocalyptic bunker kind of way.

The only way I could see myself enjoying those streets is by driving through the downtown without any storefronts or street life to create distractions and slow down traffic--like the simplicity of driving on a freeway. But it doesn't make for an attractive downtown.