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You can hope that Iggy and his team will be more receptive to urban concerns, because they are apparently snobs from the urban ivory tower.

But you can also hope for the Leafs to win a Stanley Cup in our lifetimes. ;)
 
RedRocket191 said:
The similarities are in the funding. There is no "money in an account" for new streetcars at this time. By your argument, the promise of new streetcars is not worth anything because we need money in an account AND a signed contract.

All I'm saying is that I don't think that "I don't trust that they will be able to deliver" is a valid argument because it's too subjective and you can argue it about anything.
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Any politician promising that something will happen when they are not in office is promising what they cannot deliver. In order to deliver something beyond your time in office you need to sign a contract and put money in an account or get things complete enough that future governments can't abort the project otherwise the next government can throw out your plans. Contracts are legally binding documents. A Dalton plan to electrify a corridor in 2025 or a Harper plan to start reducing greenhouse gas in 2015 isn't worth the paper it is printed on. The Harris government was able to stop the Eglinton subway project because the previous government didn't sign an ironclad contract and didn't have the money already spent. If the money had been put in escrow for the construction of the line we would have an Eglinton subway line today.

If the government that has created the transportation plan thinks the line isn't worth electrifying now prior to the purchase of trains and at the time it is easiest to install... how certain can you be that some future government going to see things differently?

Anyone who says "2025 firm" based on what government says in 2009 hasn't looked at the history books enough. Look at the Network 2011 plans from the 80s. The Downtown Relief Line subway, the Eglinton West subway, and the Sheppard subway from Downsview to Scarborough Centre will be done by "2011 firm". There are only two years left... do you think it will happen?
 
So then why even have a plan? Why not just use ad hoc planning?

I'm just trying to explain what the RTP says. I'm not asking you to treat it as gospel.

I just think think the vision we have now is better than the political way it was done before.
 
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The current plan IS mostly Ad Hoc planning. It would be nice if GTA transit was planned with a clean slate approach but what was done was take all the plans each city came up with on their own Ad Hoc, stick it in a single document, and to try and tweak a few things to make these Ad Hoc components work together better.

It is great to have a long term plan even when not in a position to implement the whole thing because it guides the design of what is built today to ensure it works in a bigger fabric in the future. However, the current RTP is less of a plan than the Network 2011 plan was. Sheppard subway was built as part of the previous plan, with the new plan Sheppard is left to look like a serious planning mistake. The current plan has a Sheppard LRT, Malvern LRT, SRT, and Markham and Durham bound BRT all in the small area around the 401 in Scarborough... obviously something that wouldn't have been planned with a clean slate approach because that area is nowhere near the density that would require so many higher order transit routes.

The government is trying to sell people that electrification is in the future plan in order to quell opposition to elevated diesel trains but the reality is they are in no position to deliver beyond their term in office. Anyone along the corridor buying the idea that electrification is not too far off and that the elevated diesel engines flying over their streets will be a short term problem because of "the plan" and thinks they will be able to sell their property in 2025 at a higher value is as overly optimistic as the person who bought property at Bathurst and Sheppard as an investment because a new subway station was going to be built or a waterfront condo west of Spadina because the airport would close.

Saying "2025 firm" is a joke. Even politicians wouldn't use the word firm in that context.
 
Blue 22 vs Eglinton Crosstown

Wont most people choose to use Eglinton crosstown rather than Blue 22?

Metropass vs 20$ Blue 22...
I would rather leave earlier than pay 20$...

I'm not saying its a bad idea but anyone leaving either North or close to Eglinton or don't need to go downtown will take the crosstown
 
Ansem said:
Wont most people choose to use Eglinton crosstown rather than Blue 22?

Metropass vs 20$ Blue 22...
I would rather leave earlier than pay 20$...

I'm not saying its a bad idea but anyone leaving either North or close to Eglinton or don't need to go downtown will take the crosstown
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Different clientel - Someone taking Blue 22 is likely already living/working downtown. I usually take the bus to the airport (train after), and taxi back. I just don't want to lug my luggage all over the place, squishing everyone that I run into - and coming back.... the christmas before last - I had around 100kg of luggage - that would not work on either.

I just want to go to the downtown transit hub (Union Station), and check my luggage :rolleyes:
 
Ansem said:
Wont most people choose to use Eglinton crosstown rather than Blue 22?

Metropass vs 20$ Blue 22...
I would rather leave earlier than pay 20$...

I'm not saying its a bad idea but anyone leaving either North or close to Eglinton or don't need to go downtown will take the crosstown
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You'd think, wouldn't you ... even many downtown would simply go to Eglinton West and change. I suspect that if they do build the Eglinton RT as grade-separated, it will be the final nail in the coffin of trying to run a profit-based airport service from downtown.
 
I lived there for 1 year and 1 day. Yes I am familiar with the London underground. There is already a restriction on what you can bring on the subway during rush hour, and if the Eglinton LRT line is not a subway - it will be smaller, and bringing large items during rush hour will be a major problem.
 
nfitz said:
I suspect that if they do build the Eglinton RT as grade-separated, it will be the final nail in the coffin of trying to force a profit-based airport express service from downtown to make a silly, time wasting, stop at Weston for no one to get on or off.
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Fixed your post.
 
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TOareaFan said:
Fixed your post.
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Ah ... different issue. I'm quite sure if the airport train is forced to stop at Weston, that after a few months, the operator will be able to demonstrate to the various agencies that no one is using it and will terminate the service, so I wouldn't worry about that.

And I'm quite sure everyone involved with the EA is well aware that is exactly what would happen, so it's an easy concession to make to the community, because then it's simply use it or loose it ... with everyone's expectation that they would quickly loose it.
 
nfitz said:
Ah ... different issue. I'm quite sure if the airport train is forced to stop at Weston, that after a few months, the operator will be able to demonstrate to the various agencies that no one is using it and will terminate the service, so I wouldn't worry about that.

And I'm quite sure everyone involved with the EA is well aware that is exactly what would happen, so it's an easy concession to make to the community, because then it's simply use it or loose it ... with everyone's expectation that they would quickly loose it.
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It is a different issue but your post said (or implied) that the Eglinton RT would be the final nail in the coffin of the dowtown express train....I disagree...it will just be the final nail in the coffin of this express to downtown (designed to serve tourists, business folks and downtown residents) having to masquarade as a local service that serves all communities. I think that is a good thing because no downtown express service could survive if it has to make a bunch of time wasting stops.....having the Eglinton RT there to serve the local "to the airport" transit needs is, I believe, actually a good thing for the "for profit express service"....not, as you said, a final nail in its coffin.
 
TOareaFan said:
... having the Eglinton RT there to serve the local "to the airport" transit needs is, I believe, actually a good thing for the "for profit express service"....not, as you said, a final nail in its coffin.
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It would be interesting to see the results of a demand model - but I have hard time believing that there is enough of a demand to run the service without a large operating subsidy.

And if was a business person at a meeting at, say, Queen's Park I'd think twice about taking the $3 subway 4 stops south to Union to catch a $30 express train that takes 22 minutes to get to the airport, and only runs every 20 minutes, when I could go 6 stops north and jump on a free 30-minute RT train to the airport that runs every 3 minutes.
 
nfitz said:
It would be interesting to see the results of a demand model - but I have hard time believing that there is enough of a demand to run the service without a large operating subsidy.

And if was a business person at a meeting at, say, Queen's Park I'd think twice about taking the $3 subway 4 stops south to Union to catch a $30 express train that takes 22 minutes to get to the airport, and only runs every 20 minutes, when I could go 6 stops north and jump on a free 30-minute RT train to the airport that runs every 3 minutes.
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Sure, if every business guy coming and going to the city was meeting at Queen's Park, I might agree.

What about the 1 or 2 (tee hee) who are meeting at FCP/TD/Brookfield/Scotia...that can easily walk to Union in a couple of minutes, check in (to the train and plane) and scoot to the airport express in comfort (moreso than an LRT/Subway) with, likely, wifi access and a cup o java in hand.

Look, we will never know until it happens. I just think that the best chance an express line has of attracting the sort of fares it needs ($20 +) is to be truly express......the best chance this line has of being truly express is if there is an alternative service for public transit which would allow the ending of the insanity of a Weston stop on the express line.....so I think that the Eglinton LRT to the airport is a good thing for Blue 22 (or whatever it ends up being).

Just my opinion and we could challenge it or support it all day with mythical starting points (heck..maybe the area around the Dundas West station becomes the business hub of the city due to Blue 22 ;) ) for mythical trips....but I have faith that most of the business meetings in this city are not ocurring at Queens Park or College Park....they might be taking place in the towers located in the financial district....all of which have a climate controlled easy walk connection to Union station!
 
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