Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[dowlingm]

Even if conveniently connected to DRL, to place it so remotely would freak out the high speed/VIA supporters who already, with some justification, saw Ottawa's station placed far from the CBD.

 

[gweed123]

Let's spend money on where we currently need transit and don't have it. Before we worry about improving transit for places that already have it, and only need improvements for redevelopment.

Agreed, but at the same time you need to be planning for future growth in the downtown area. It won't be too long before the area from Sherbourne to the Don River looks like the area from Jarvis to University (density-wise I mean). There will need to be a N-S transit solution for that area. E-W, especially if there's nothing in a dedicated ROW, won't do it.

The DRL needs to happen, but I don't think the Parliament LRT would preclude that in any way. I mean, we're probably looking at a similar price tag per km (adjusted for inflation) as St. Clair. That's pretty much a rounding error in the grand scheme of the DRL. Especially if Toronto ever gets around to implementing local revenue tools, I think we'll start to see a lot of those type of improvement projects (Parliament LRT, Portlands LRT, dedicated bus lanes on suburban corridors, etc) coming about with those local funds, with Metrolinx covering the big LRT/subway/GO REX projects.

Any Parliament LRT should go right to Union Station.

Definitely. I'll make a map of it a bit later (too busy this weekend), but basically I envision 1 route running from Castle Frank to Union, and another from Castle Frank down to and across Queen, then up Spadina. Of course, this is probably contingent on my Queen LRT proposal coming through as well.

Even if conveniently connected to DRL, to place it so remotely would freak out the high speed/VIA supporters who already, with some justification, saw Ottawa's station placed far from the CBD.

Yeah, I can't see anywhere duplicating Ottawa's mistake. Part of VIA's attractiveness is that it drops you off right smack dab downtown in Toronto and Montreal. Moving the terminus somewhere else eliminates that advantage.

 

[btg]

Let's spend money on where we currently need transit and don't have it. Before we worry about improving transit for places that already have it, and only need improvements for redevelopment.

The problem is that there is no need for an LRT running north-south through Riverdale, even if there is development happening along Eastern Avenue or the Unilever site in the long term... and if there were redevelopment along a DRL running through Riverdale, this would also increase car and truck traffic, but it is a terrible area in terms of roads and access from the DVP or Gardiner, unlike even Sheppard, which is parallel to the 401.

Riverdale doesn't need more transit, and isn't supposed to get development!

On the other hand, there is a massive amount of development in the Core and the Official Plan directs growth to the Core. There is the Regent Park Intensification, Intensification of The Kings, and the West Donlands condos which is the Athletes' Village for the Pan-Am games.

As for Parliament being walking distance from Yonge, here are the numbers:

Yonge to Parliament - 1.2km
Yonge to Spadina - 1.4km
University to Spadina - 0.8km

The University line doesn't have the capacity issues of the Yonge line parallel to it. Yet, what was the justification for building the Spadina LRT? Was the number of passengers using the previous buses high enough to justify the $100 million or so cost of the tunnel and other things north of College, yet alone the costs spent to the south where there were the old tracks which were not being used (but could have just been rebuilt to be similar to Parliament)?

And remember, there is also the Bathurst Streetcar running not that far west of Spadina too, so people to the west of Spadina were within walking distance of the Bathurst streetcars!

The point is that it is possible to connect a transit line into Castle Frank - it could merely mean that the streetcar network in the Core can be expanded with a new surface route running from queen's Quay to the Subway, to create a big U, or it could be something less ambitious, that might allow some streetcars on some of the east west lines to turn north instead of heading east of the Don River... or it could be underground and serve to draw enough riders away from Yonge so that the problems at Yonge/Bloor station are lessened to make the current DRL proposal pointless, and to delay the need for it for several decades.

 

[sixrings]

The problem is that there is no need for an LRT running north-south through Riverdale, even if there is development happening along Eastern Avenue or the Unilever site in the long term... and if there were redevelopment along a DRL running through Riverdale, this would also increase car and truck traffic, but it is a terrible area in terms of roads and access from the DVP or Gardiner, unlike even Sheppard, which is parallel to the 401.

Riverdale doesn't need more transit, and isn't supposed to get development!

On the other hand, there is a massive amount of development in the Core and the Official Plan directs growth to the Core. There is the Regent Park Intensification, Intensification of The Kings, and the West Donlands condos which is the Athletes' Village for the Pan-Am games.

As for Parliament being walking distance from Yonge, here are the numbers:

Yonge to Parliament - 1.2km
Yonge to Spadina - 1.4km
University to Spadina - 0.8km

The University line doesn't have the capacity issues of the Yonge line parallel to it. Yet, what was the justification for building the Spadina LRT? Was the number of passengers using the previous buses high enough to justify the $100 million or so cost of the tunnel and other things north of College, yet alone the costs spent to the south where there were the old tracks which were not being used (but could have just been rebuilt to be similar to Parliament)?

And remember, there is also the Bathurst Streetcar running not that far west of Spadina too, so people to the west of Spadina were within walking distance of the Bathurst streetcars!

The point is that it is possible to connect a transit line into Castle Frank - it could merely mean that the streetcar network in the Core can be expanded with a new surface route running from queen's Quay to the Subway, to create a big U, or it could be something less ambitious, that might allow some streetcars on some of the east west lines to turn north instead of heading east of the Don River... or it could be underground and serve to draw enough riders away from Yonge so that the problems at Yonge/Bloor station are lessened to make the current DRL proposal pointless, and to delay the need for it for several decades.

I would never say no to building more streetcar lines and you are right about spadina and bathurst being so close. I just would not have a lrt or streetcar as a replacement for a DRL Subway.

 

[Uncle Teddy]

Spadina was always a very busy route, certainly busier than Parliament was or is today. A good reason for it to be upgraded. And close to University or Bathurst is irrelevant when a lot of the traffic is local.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Spadina was always a very busy route, certainly busier than Parliament was or is today. A good reason for it to be upgraded. And close to University or Bathurst is irrelevant when a lot of the traffic is local.

The original streetcar Belt Line ran along Spadina, Bloor, Sherbourne, and King until 1923. See link.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Spadina is the busiest streetcar line in the network and receives bar far the most ridership per km of travel. It was absolutely justified.

 

[gweed123]

Spadina is the busiest streetcar line in the network and receives bar far the most ridership per km of travel. It was absolutely justified.

I don't think he was questioning whether Spadina is justified, I think he was just stating the geographic similarities between Spadina in the west and Parliament in the east, in that they're major N-S corridors that are roughly equidistant from the closest N-S subway line.

I totally agree that this wouldn't be a replacement for the DRL at all, but in terms of creating a second, wider streetcar U or belt around downtown, I think the idea certainly has merit.

I've added it what I mean with the Parliament LRT to my map. Ignore the outer parts if you wish, it was just easier for me to add it to my existing system-wide map than try and create a new map from scratch:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map v5.jpg

 

[ksun]

What's the purpose though, at least north of Gerrard. Current usage on that route peaks at less than 200 passengers an hour in AM peak.

I can see there'd be some ridership between Yonge and Parliament - but these people aren't generally getting off at Parliament.

try reroute the Parliament streetcar from Castle Frank straight to King and Bay and then Union, with no stops between during rush hour, and head to Yonge/Dundas on the weekends, and it can easily get extremely busy.

Parliament bus has low ridership because Castle Frank is practically in the middle of nowhere.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Definitely. I'll make a map of it a bit later (too busy this weekend), but basically I envision 1 route running from Castle Frank to Union, and another from Castle Frank down to and across Queen, then up Spadina. Of course, this is probably contingent on my Queen LRT proposal coming through as well.

I like the loop idea. Would remove some riders from the lower loop, I would take that. You think it would do better tied to Bathurst instead or no?

 

[nfitz]

try reroute the Parliament streetcar from Castle Frank straight to King and Bay and then Union, with no stops between during rush hour

So it just stops at red lights, and doesn't pick up passengers? That doesn't make sense.

Parliament bus has low ridership because Castle Frank is practically in the middle of nowhere.

And yet the 504/505 service on Broadview, Sherbourne bus are different? They all have the same destination - the Bloor-Danforth line.

 

[WislaHD]

I don't think he was questioning whether Spadina is justified, I think he was just stating the geographic similarities between Spadina in the west and Parliament in the east, in that they're major N-S corridors that are roughly equidistant from the closest N-S subway line.

I totally agree that this wouldn't be a replacement for the DRL at all, but in terms of creating a second, wider streetcar U or belt around downtown, I think the idea certainly has merit.

I've added it what I mean with the Parliament LRT to my map. Ignore the outer parts if you wish, it was just easier for me to add it to my existing system-wide map than try and create a new map from scratch:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map v5.jpg

I like it! This is better than a simple Parliament LRT as it connects with riders to the west. Better and more regular transit would help promote further densification east of the downtown core as well.

I take it that Queen is underground through the core? What would the cost of that be?

 

[ksun]

So it just stops at red lights, and doesn't pick up passengers? That doesn't make sense..

Too many lights to stop for. The urge to make stops and pick up passengers frustrates me. OK, a compromise is one stop at Dundas/Parliament. This hypothetical line will be meaningless if it can't be faster than going further to transfer at Yonge/Bloor and then coming down. Remember it is a streetcar which moves much slower. You have to make it quick to compete with the Yonge line (or relieve it). Stopping at Wellesley, Carlton, Gerrard, Dundas, Queen, like TTC can't help doing, makes this line entirely meaningless. Stop trying to make it "local service" because there is nothing worth stopping for on Parliament.

And yet the 504/505 service on Broadview, Sherbourne bus are different? They all have the same destination - the Bloor-Danforth line.

Those two lines are different, aren't they?
504 goes a long King st, with many important destination spots. Parliament has zero.
505 route is a lot longer than Parliament and it has major stops such as Yonge st and Spadina ave. Parliament goes nowhere interesting. I am about 15 minutes walking to Parliament and never for once went there because there is nothing. Yonge and Spadina at Dundas? thousands of times.

 

[nfitz]

Too many lights to stop for. The urge to make stops and pick up passengers frustrates me. OK, a compromise is one stop at Dundas/Parliament. This hypothetical line will be meaningless if it can't be faster than going further to transfer at Yonge/Bloor and then coming down. Remember it is a streetcar which moves much slower. You have to make it quick to compete with the Yonge line (or relieve it). Stopping at Wellesley, Carlton, Gerrard, Dundas, Queen, like TTC can't help doing, makes this line entirely meaningless. Stop trying to make it "local service" because there is nothing worth stopping for on Parliament.

Have you driven a car down Parliament? Have you not noticed that you get stuck on all the reds?

 

[ksun]

Have you driven a car down Parliament? Have you not noticed that you get stuck on all the reds?

of course there are red lights. Doesn't mean a streetcar should stop every time there is traffic light.
1) it still often takes less time to wait for a red light than picking up passengers.
2) sometimes the lights are green.

All I am saying is this has to be faster and can't work like the typical stop every 200 meter streetcars that take ever to get anywhere. If that's the plan, I am afraid people will still use Yonge/Bloor to go downtown, which makes this line redundant.